Airline Pilot Is it a good choice for a career change?
01-12-2007, 04:09 PM
#1
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 14
Airline Pilot Is it a good choice for a career change?
- IF THE POST IS TOO LONG, JUST JUMP OVER THE FIRST 6 PARAGRAPHS -
Im 30 (Permanent Green Card Holder), tired of my current job (14 years of Hardware/ Software support) and Im looking to change careers. About 2 years ago I checked into joining the Navy or the Air Force to fly planes. The recruiter promised me I would learn how to fly planes. I insisted on taking an extra day to think about it. After looking up some info I found out that you have to have a 4 year degree to even be eligible for Flight Training. I was 28 at the time. And after talking to some people in online forums I found out that after 30, even if Im qualified for flight training the odds of getting picked go down fast. So that did not work out.
Fast forward to today, Im about to finish my AA in Engineering and after that plan on taking a break (6 month) from work, school and all the other day to day hassle.
I looked into becoming an airline pilot on my own, without the military and I came across several schools (ATP Flight School, National Pilot Academy, ERAU, JetUniversity, ..)
From experiences that some of my friends have had with these Drive-thru Schools I was comprehensive about signing up. I understand the guarantee you a job or some other wording like that. But two of my buddies paid over $60000 for a 4 year school and now they get $9.75 hr for graphic work.
After reading this and some other forums with some colorful opinions about the airline industry in general I decided against the Drive-Thru School route.
As of right now my plan is to finish my B.S. in Engineering either at USF or UF and a Minor in Business. I can still earn a living as a Real Estate Agent or a Real Estate Appraiser. I still want to try for a career as a pilot but I dont want to make it an all or nothing choice. So I want to take the traditional route and get the different certifications on my own.
Please fill in or correct any information that is missing or wrong.
I understand that I have to pass various Medical Exams. I also understand that I have to pass various written, oral exams, and the check flights. I also think there some variations on the various Licenses.
At what point can I apply for a job with a regional or national airline? The first 250 Hours is feasible on my own, but after that just to get the hours on the larger planes the expense grows rapidly. Do the airlines have their own training programs? I would even consider renting multi-engine planes in 10 or 25 hour blocks.
How does someone get into flying small Private Jets and later mid to large Jets. At what point can I begin that training.
What does Part 61, Part 135, Part mean?
Sorry about the lengthy post.
Thomas S.
Tampa, FL
Im 30 (Permanent Green Card Holder), tired of my current job (14 years of Hardware/ Software support) and Im looking to change careers. About 2 years ago I checked into joining the Navy or the Air Force to fly planes. The recruiter promised me I would learn how to fly planes. I insisted on taking an extra day to think about it. After looking up some info I found out that you have to have a 4 year degree to even be eligible for Flight Training. I was 28 at the time. And after talking to some people in online forums I found out that after 30, even if Im qualified for flight training the odds of getting picked go down fast. So that did not work out.
Fast forward to today, Im about to finish my AA in Engineering and after that plan on taking a break (6 month) from work, school and all the other day to day hassle.
I looked into becoming an airline pilot on my own, without the military and I came across several schools (ATP Flight School, National Pilot Academy, ERAU, JetUniversity, ..)
From experiences that some of my friends have had with these Drive-thru Schools I was comprehensive about signing up. I understand the guarantee you a job or some other wording like that. But two of my buddies paid over $60000 for a 4 year school and now they get $9.75 hr for graphic work.
After reading this and some other forums with some colorful opinions about the airline industry in general I decided against the Drive-Thru School route.
As of right now my plan is to finish my B.S. in Engineering either at USF or UF and a Minor in Business. I can still earn a living as a Real Estate Agent or a Real Estate Appraiser. I still want to try for a career as a pilot but I dont want to make it an all or nothing choice. So I want to take the traditional route and get the different certifications on my own.
Please fill in or correct any information that is missing or wrong.
- Student Pilot License
- Private Pilot License (40 Hours)
- Instrument Rating (Night Time, Bad Weather) (50 Hours)
- Multi-Engine Rating (50 Hours)
- Single-Engine Commercial Rating (250 Hours)
- Multi-Engine Commercial Rating (250 Hours)
- CFI, CFII, MEI
- Airline Transport Pilot (1500 Hours)
I understand that I have to pass various Medical Exams. I also understand that I have to pass various written, oral exams, and the check flights. I also think there some variations on the various Licenses.
At what point can I apply for a job with a regional or national airline? The first 250 Hours is feasible on my own, but after that just to get the hours on the larger planes the expense grows rapidly. Do the airlines have their own training programs? I would even consider renting multi-engine planes in 10 or 25 hour blocks.
How does someone get into flying small Private Jets and later mid to large Jets. At what point can I begin that training.
What does Part 61, Part 135, Part mean?
Sorry about the lengthy post.
Thomas S.
Tampa, FL
01-12-2007, 04:14 PM
#2
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 14
By taking the above route, what are my chances of getting to a regional in 5 years?
Does having had LASIK prevent me from getting a job as a regional (or up) FO or pilot? I had the new IntraLase procedure done. It used a laser instead of a blade to cut the flap, and the flap had a beveled edge, not a flat cut like with the blade. The doctor told me the Navy is looking into changing their rules about LASIK with the new beveled edge because it a better seated flap. (then again, that part may just have been a sales tactic)
Does having had LASIK prevent me from getting a job as a regional (or up) FO or pilot? I had the new IntraLase procedure done. It used a laser instead of a blade to cut the flap, and the flap had a beveled edge, not a flat cut like with the blade. The doctor told me the Navy is looking into changing their rules about LASIK with the new beveled edge because it a better seated flap. (then again, that part may just have been a sales tactic)
Last edited by Thomas; 01-12-2007 at 04:24 PM.
01-12-2007, 05:47 PM
#3
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,232
1) Your plan on having a sideline/backup career is good...it takes some anxiety out of aviation when it is not your sole means of income.
2) You Flight training plan is correct, although variations are possible (plan of 50+ hours for your private)
3) The only medical you need is a First Class FAA medical. Get one before you commit yourself to a training program. (Note: you can do some types of commercial flying with a second class medical, but your job options are seriously limited)
4) The experience required to get a regional job varies with market conditions. It has been as high as 3500 hours/ATP to as low as 600/COM. It is currently at 600 w/ commercial license, but that can change...in October 2001 you would have needed 40,000 hours and a space-shuttle type rating to get any sort of flying job. In addition you will need at least 50-500 multi-engine hours, normally 100-300.
5) You normally work as a CFI to build hours beyond 250, then go to a regional after you have 1000 or whatever the market value is at that time. You can get a regional job by just applying when you reach the competetive experience level.
6) From the regionals you can go into either private/corporate flying or major airlines. Corporate normally requires 2500+ hours, majors 5000+. The reality of getting hired at this level is that you usually have to know someone at the company you want to work at. There are a few exceptions, such as Southwest Airlines.
7) Most jet training will be provided by your employers. Very few people get a jet type rating first, and then go look for a job (we won't get into SWA here). Caution: Unscrupulous people will try to sell you jet airliner training at some point...this is a rip-off! Airlines are required by the FAA to put you through their own training program, even if you have already been trained on that aircraft...so why spend the $$$?
8) The so-called FAR's (actually 14 CFR) are the US government regulations pertaining to aviation. They are very difficult to read and will make almost no sense at all until they are explained during your training. There are many, but the important ones are:
Part 61 (14 CFR 61): Pilot training, qualification, and experience
Part 91: General Aviation operating rules (this is the big one for students)
Part 135: Charter Rules
Part 121: Airline Rules
Oh, yeah regarding the military: Sounds like you wised up to the recruiter's BS, but most fixed-wing flying jobs require that you be an officer, which requires a 4 year degree and US Citizenship.
2) You Flight training plan is correct, although variations are possible (plan of 50+ hours for your private)
3) The only medical you need is a First Class FAA medical. Get one before you commit yourself to a training program. (Note: you can do some types of commercial flying with a second class medical, but your job options are seriously limited)
4) The experience required to get a regional job varies with market conditions. It has been as high as 3500 hours/ATP to as low as 600/COM. It is currently at 600 w/ commercial license, but that can change...in October 2001 you would have needed 40,000 hours and a space-shuttle type rating to get any sort of flying job. In addition you will need at least 50-500 multi-engine hours, normally 100-300.
5) You normally work as a CFI to build hours beyond 250, then go to a regional after you have 1000 or whatever the market value is at that time. You can get a regional job by just applying when you reach the competetive experience level.
6) From the regionals you can go into either private/corporate flying or major airlines. Corporate normally requires 2500+ hours, majors 5000+. The reality of getting hired at this level is that you usually have to know someone at the company you want to work at. There are a few exceptions, such as Southwest Airlines.
7) Most jet training will be provided by your employers. Very few people get a jet type rating first, and then go look for a job (we won't get into SWA here). Caution: Unscrupulous people will try to sell you jet airliner training at some point...this is a rip-off! Airlines are required by the FAA to put you through their own training program, even if you have already been trained on that aircraft...so why spend the $$$?
8) The so-called FAR's (actually 14 CFR) are the US government regulations pertaining to aviation. They are very difficult to read and will make almost no sense at all until they are explained during your training. There are many, but the important ones are:
Part 61 (14 CFR 61): Pilot training, qualification, and experience
Part 91: General Aviation operating rules (this is the big one for students)
Part 135: Charter Rules
Part 121: Airline Rules
Oh, yeah regarding the military: Sounds like you wised up to the recruiter's BS, but most fixed-wing flying jobs require that you be an officer, which requires a 4 year degree and US Citizenship.
01-12-2007, 05:50 PM
#4
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,232
Originally Posted by Thomas
By taking the above route, what are my chances of getting to a regional in 5 years?
Does having had LASIK prevent me from getting a job as a regional (or up) FO or pilot? I had the new IntraLase procedure done. It used a laser instead of a blade to cut the flap, and the flap had a beveled edge, not a flat cut like with the blade. The doctor told me the Navy is looking into changing their rules about LASIK with the new beveled edge because it a better seated flap. (then again, that part may just have been a sales tactic)
Does having had LASIK prevent me from getting a job as a regional (or up) FO or pilot? I had the new IntraLase procedure done. It used a laser instead of a blade to cut the flap, and the flap had a beveled edge, not a flat cut like with the blade. The doctor told me the Navy is looking into changing their rules about LASIK with the new beveled edge because it a better seated flap. (then again, that part may just have been a sales tactic)
01-12-2007, 07:23 PM
#5
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Posts: 21
" 7) Most jet training will be provided by your employers. Very few people get a jet type rating first, and then go look for a job (we won't get into SWA here). Caution: Unscrupulous people will try to sell you jet airliner training at some point...this is a rip-off! Airlines are required by the FAA to put you through their own training program, even if you have already been trained on that aircraft...so why spend the $$$? "
I recently looked into the jetuniversity.com program where they are guarantying a job w/ Pinnacle (northwest). I totally agree with this perspective described above form this post. However If this really works can this be reliable at least until this demand for pilots fall off?
I recently looked into the jetuniversity.com program where they are guarantying a job w/ Pinnacle (northwest). I totally agree with this perspective described above form this post. However If this really works can this be reliable at least until this demand for pilots fall off?
01-13-2007, 08:52 AM
#8
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,232
Originally Posted by tinyfuzz
" 7) Most jet training will be provided by your employers. Very few people get a jet type rating first, and then go look for a job (we won't get into SWA here). Caution: Unscrupulous people will try to sell you jet airliner training at some point...this is a rip-off! Airlines are required by the FAA to put you through their own training program, even if you have already been trained on that aircraft...so why spend the $$$? "
I recently looked into the jetuniversity.com program where they are guarantying a job w/ Pinnacle (northwest). I totally agree with this perspective described above form this post. However If this really works can this be reliable at least until this demand for pilots fall off?
I recently looked into the jetuniversity.com program where they are guarantying a job w/ Pinnacle (northwest). I totally agree with this perspective described above form this post. However If this really works can this be reliable at least until this demand for pilots fall off?
However...
1) Read all the fine print (there will be a lot of that). No airline can put fundamentally non-capable pilots in their airplanes. There WILL be a means for them to avoid doing that if they feel you don't measure up.
2) Pinnacle has a lot of things wrong with it due to the NWA bankruptcy, and even in the best of times was never a great place to work.
3) For less money you can get your instructor certificates, teach for a few months, and get hired at any number of regionals with 1000 hours or less, due to the current demand.
4) CFI certificates looks good on your resume, even years from now.
01-14-2007, 09:38 AM
#9
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Posts: 21
thanks for replying, now you do bring up a good point, I didn't realize to look too much into the company's working conditions. In the past I have put up w/ a lot of managers and lot of bs working all my life. What gets me about this opportunity is that I initially would pay for a guaranteed position. So I'm putting up a gamble to learn, get hired, sit around wait on reserve then if they dislike me ( no way on earth ) 'n get fired all b/c I put up the money. I do like the the stable approach you suggest w/ cfi route. I've met and talked to few cfi's and I'm unsure if I want that path now. I know I want to be in the air.
05-01-2007, 09:53 AM
#10
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 8
In light of the above posts, I'll add my two cents......
I am a new member to APC but I have been reading a number of your posts for over a month. It's a good place to get a smile. I like the positive thread so I thought I would make my move and ask some daunting questions I'm dealing with. I am a private pilot with an instrument rating (piston single). I am married with a kid on the way and about to go through ATPs airline pilot program. My wife and I am prepared to make only $18k a year and to fight through the airline business cycles. If anyone feels nice, please offer a guy some advise following your footsteps....
1) Truly, how often will I be gone? I live in Fayetteville, NC. Is it realistic to think I can commute to wherever and not move to a hub city? I am close to Raleigh, Charlotte and relatively close to Atlanta. Chitaqua and ASA serve Fayetteville. ASA for Delta 4 times a day to Atlanta and Chitaqua for US Airways 5 times a day to Charlotte. Is it realistic to hope for a job with one of them?
2) How does the reserve thing work? Are you stuck in the hub city(which from what I have read is the Base??) or will I have, say, a 48 hour notice to be somewhere.
3) I won't be done training and teaching with ATP for about 6 months. Do you think the regionals will still be sucking up pilots?
4) It seems that most of you fly between 80-100 hours a month. Is that about right?
Thanks to anyone willing to help. Hope the best to you all.
I am a new member to APC but I have been reading a number of your posts for over a month. It's a good place to get a smile. I like the positive thread so I thought I would make my move and ask some daunting questions I'm dealing with. I am a private pilot with an instrument rating (piston single). I am married with a kid on the way and about to go through ATPs airline pilot program. My wife and I am prepared to make only $18k a year and to fight through the airline business cycles. If anyone feels nice, please offer a guy some advise following your footsteps....
1) Truly, how often will I be gone? I live in Fayetteville, NC. Is it realistic to think I can commute to wherever and not move to a hub city? I am close to Raleigh, Charlotte and relatively close to Atlanta. Chitaqua and ASA serve Fayetteville. ASA for Delta 4 times a day to Atlanta and Chitaqua for US Airways 5 times a day to Charlotte. Is it realistic to hope for a job with one of them?
2) How does the reserve thing work? Are you stuck in the hub city(which from what I have read is the Base??) or will I have, say, a 48 hour notice to be somewhere.
3) I won't be done training and teaching with ATP for about 6 months. Do you think the regionals will still be sucking up pilots?
4) It seems that most of you fly between 80-100 hours a month. Is that about right?
Thanks to anyone willing to help. Hope the best to you all.
Last edited by Joe Sheffield; 05-01-2007 at 09:59 AM.
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