CFII Teaching Private Pilot Applicant?
 

What (if any) instruction may a CFI-I (NOT A CFI) give to a private pilot applicant? I have been told that they are allowed to conduct the simulated instrument training. But when I was taking my checkride years back my examiner seemed to agree with me that CFI-I cannot touch a primary student for any training what soever.

Got into a debate with another instructor about it and neither one of us could find a conclusive answer in the FARs.

Any insight would be appreciated

thank you

You mean this part?

before 2009 you could instrument teach with a double eye. now your double eye is literally useless and you cant even set foot in an airplane without getting the cfi. get the cfi other wise you just wasted your money because you cant even exercise the double eye. go ahead and do it though i want to hear what the faa has to say about it.

It's been a while, but I thought you had to get your CFI first then the ii as an add on. Has that changed?

I did my CFII first and added my CFI.

The reason this is popular is that if you do your CFII first, then go back and do the CFI, you don't have to teach the BAI skills in CFI, since you've demonstrated that previously in CFII.

If you do it the other way around, you have to teach BAI for CFI and then essentially again for CFII. It's notionally cheaper to do it CFII first, and for 141 schools competing with each other neck and neck, this is sometimes their chosen route to do CFII and CFI. So many other things will throw a wrench in or affect the total cost for a certificate/rating, so I don't generally recommend this for the cost factor, but it remains popular.

Continuing on with what JamesNoBrakes was getting at: as an instructor, and pilot in general, you need to understand what the privileges and limitations are of your pilot certificate. FAR 61.193 lays out the privileges, "A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings..."

So, what are the privileges of the Instrument Instructor? They are to provide instruction for the Instrument Rating which is a privilege that is added to a previously existing pilot certificate. Definitions are extremely important here, and FAR Part 1.1 under Definitions and Abbreviations defines a rating as something which "sets forth special conditions, privileges, or limitations."

Although the instrument training received during the private pilot course is eventually counted towards the instrument rating, it cannot be taught by a CFII because that instructor is limited to instruction relating to the added rating, and not to the initial certificate.

as it was said above getting the II first has a higher pass rate for the initial and there are fewer things to do in the PTS to add on the airplane rating. i did the same thing. but the category and class rating thing applies. if you dont have the CFI-A (airplane) you cant set foot in a plane, when i got my original temporary it said on it "cannot act as instructor in an airplane"
by all means do the II first, but make sure you have a date for the CFI-A add on or you will legally not be aloud to do anything

You can still get the CFII first.

Used to be that the GA community (including FSDOs) interpreted the regs to mean that a CFII could give any instrument instruction (including in a ME airplane) without having a CFI or MEI (you needed a ME rating but not an MEI).

The FAA recently issued a legal finding to clarify these rules and basically said you need a CFI/MEI to give any flight instruction. The CFII is effectively now only useful as an add-on instructor rating (although you can earn the CFII before the CFI if desired).

Military pilots who only flew centerline thrust multiengine aircraft (most USAF/USN fighters, T-38, and maybe one or two other types) can take the Mil Comp-Instructor written test and be given a CFI-I certificate. However, it will NOT have an airplane rating on it. So, while essentially useless in practice it does allow one to skip the initial instructor practical with an FAA examiner and skip to a practical with a DPE for their CFI or MEI once they've practiced the required maneuvers in the PTS.