CFI
 

Hey guys just looking for some input , I just hit 1500 hours and sent a couple apps out to the regionals and all of them called back to interview . Long story short , I was sitting at two busts prior to my Cfi ride . Prepared as much as I could and decided to go to the Fsdo in my district . I had the option of going to another Fsdo since a friend went there after busting at my local Fsdo a couple times . So I decided to go to my Fsdo and my luck it was observed and they bust me twice . Can't Blaim anyone but myself . I went to the other Fsdo and passed with flying colors . To this day 3 years later I regret every day not going to that Fsdo in the first place . Now I am in fear that I lost my career before it even started . Every single day and night I think about it and regret my decision regarding my CFI ride to the point I barley sleep and lost friends and my girlfriend because they all say I turned into a different person ever since . I feel like I'm a criminal and lost all hope even tho I have passed two rides since .

Own up to it and move on. Tell the truth on all your forms and interviews and you will be fine. Some airlines don't look at a CFI chk ride as a pilot chk ride others do .If you tell the truth you will have a fare chance.

Why did you bust?
Same reason on both rides?

If I was interviewing a candidate, I would ask the reason.

If you learn and know the standards, you have nothing to fear and you will be able to make your case if someone tries to bust you for something OTHER than meeting the standards. This is one of the MOST important things that you need to learn as a pilot moving forward, because you have to understand what level you are training to, not what some instructor or some designated examiner told you or passed you for, but whether you are actually meeting the standards in the testing material. If you know you met the standards and you were failed for a non-legitimate reason, you can bring down all kinds of hell on the examiner if you take this up as many levels as you need to get it resolved.

I'll be honest, I really didn't know and understand the standards very well as a private pilot. As I took more checkrides and started studying the PTS, I started understanding it more. It wasn't until the flight instructor level and really diving into it that I really understood it all, but if you can expedite that in yourself and your students, it will benefit all.

Would like to know more

Etc etc etc

I can honestly say on my private ride I never even knew what a PTS was ,Young low hour pilot , nervous as can be but it was my fault I should have researched for it or I would assume my flight instructor could have mentioned it as I do to all my students . But any how the examiner had me perform a turning stall something I have never done during training or on my phase check. Gave it my best shot and the examiner said we'll have to do that again . On my commercial single I missed my touchdown point on my power off 180 and asked if I would be allowed to perform it again but the examiner said no second chanches , probably should have went around but finished it the next day

Well in the Cfi oral , the examiners both stated I was merely data dumping and not teaching , and they gave me a 8710 to look over and find mistakes on which Isn't even part of the PTS , and I missed some things on there such as some abbreviations. But anyway took the failure came back and did an 8 hour oral and on the flight I performed a power off stall to commercial standards , and then to private standards for a full break and had a wing drop which throw me out off standards . I explained why it happend and taught through the recovery but the examiner didn't let it slide. He gave me the option to come back and just finish the flight but I elected to go to a different FSDO and take the entire ride over and by far was the best examiner I have ever had for a checkride and that's why I beat myself up over it

If I could do it all over again I would , but I use my shortcomings to prepare my students to the best ability I can and so far all of them have passed

During the interview I'm going to be asked what happend, what did I learn and how did I benefit from it . I defiantly learned a lot and feel I'm a better pilot as a result but it's tough to elaborate further .

Soooo...your prior failures were because you went to the wrong FSDO, rather than because you didn't meet the practical standards?

When you say you can't blame anyone else, you're not really taking blame for anything other than choosing the wrong FSDO; you're still putting the blame on the FSDO.

Before you worry about where you can go with your two training failures, you'll need to address your own ownership of this situation. That's a key issue for a pilot in command.

You don't regret not studying more. You don't regret any other aspect of the problem, except not choosing a different FSDO. That's telling. Change that aspect; learn from your past. The lesson isn't choosing the right FSDO. Learn that first, then look down the road. The view will be much brighter.

--You posted as Flat408 just a few days ago, did you not? Nearly identical scenario and comments. Changing identities and trying again?

First post here , and I did study and I was prepared , and I do know if I went to the other FSDO I would have passed, Doesn't match up if someone I knew busted and passed at a different Fsdo, unless we both sucked . But really just looking for some help trying to turn this into a beneficial positive explanation.

There are still issues there. There's nothing that says you can't have a wing drop during a stall. And yeah, "teaching" vs. "telling" is usually the real trick there. It's not easy, especially since you are expected to be a "teacher" and essentially have zero experience really teaching at the time of the checkride. It's not as easy as it sometimes sounds to really engage someone, rather than "tell them".

Now, if you grossly mishandled the airplane as to starting a spin, ok, but that's not the same thing as a wing drop, which can happen and as long as you quickly reduce the AOA to break the stall and get aileron effectiveness back (another incorrect technique that is often taught is to yaw the hell out of the airplane with the rudder, as if it's going to roll the airplane upright, good way to start a spin though) and recover within the same heading standards, it's perfectly fine.

But this is what you should learn. Maybe some of these are tough lessons, but with the knowledge of these things, you should be able to prevent someone trying to fail you for something not contained in the standards. If they do, you go to their boss.

That's all you needed to say. It tells me everything that I need to know about you. Speaks volumes.

The only thing you've learned from your previous mistake is how to project the blame onto the FSDO, and you're still doing it.

I strongly suggest you use that as your platform in an interview. See how it works for you.

I know it wasn't a severe wing drop just enough to get me out of the +10 -10 degree heading allowance . While I did use it as a teaching moment , the examiner stated it was out of standards on the recovery . But I can't do anything about it , since it was 3 years ago .

You know that a "wing drop" doesn't cause a heading change, right? You know that failure to maintain directional control does that, right?

But you know it was the wrong FSDO that caused it instead, right? Because someone else would have let you get away with it?

You're sure that you're not the guy that wanted to surrender his certificates and re-test for everything, to cover up his past? Your comments sound a lot like him.

I'm just stating what happend , and when you drop a wing , you will lose heading ( directional control ) and I went past the tolerance . All I'm doing is explaining what happend , And the other Fsdo had an examiner that was actually there to see you succeed not just intimidate you and nit pick . I never once said I'm blaming it on somebody . I took the ride and I failed to meet standards . All I'm saying is many people have went to this Fsdo and have not had luck and end up going somewhere else to have luck .

Dude, you have FOUR checkride busts. You might as well be radioactive as far as the regionals are concerned. The first thing that will go through a regional HR type's thoughts when they see your resume with four failures is that the media will FRY their airline if YOU are involved in ANY accident or even an incident that would make it to the media.

So your saying I'm the first person in the world that's going to be hired at a regional with four busts ? If so why have they all called me back when all this is on my app ?

They call you because they are so desperate for pilots that they will talk to you. It costs them nothing and maybe you have a valid reason for your failures, but when you actually talk to them the truth comes out that you are blaming others for your failures, they send you packing.

I'm not blaming anyone , I'm just stating what happen . I have taken the blame for it.

IF that's the case, you are not very good at selling it to them. ALL they see is your FOUR failures and visions of Marvin Renslow part deux.

You really need to give up on the regionals for now and try some 135 operators that will hire you to be a gear monkey and not much else. If you can build a track record of passing 135 rides with regularity, the regionals might re-evaluate you in a few years.

I did that for a year and had to quit , I couldn't afford my bills .

What were you flying for that 135? and what were your terms and conditions? How many 135 letters did you get?

I was an sic in a Pilatus getting ready for an upgrade . I have letters from all of my employers , where I used to instruct , where I flew pipeline and from my company I just left l. I was feeling good about going in to interview but now I'm feeling as if I should just forget about it .

So, the only 135 letter you have is as a copilot in plane that doesn't require one. You quit while getting ready to upgrade, why? That's a big red flag to a recruiter. They might think you were afraid of taking a 135 PIC checkride and afraid to assume command.

I think it's best that you re-think your aviation career and focus your job search to more terrestrial endeavors.

Best of luck

There was pay no raise in sight and I couldn't afford to live on the salary , so I choose to move back to my hometown.

Well, welcome to the "airline" world--full of wannabe hardazzes.

I totally believe your story about the FSDO. The flight school I went to had everyone pass the CFI, until one new guy at the FSDO showed up and started failing everybody, because they didn't teach THE WAY He Wanted. Remember the saying "I'm here from the FAA, and I'm here to help"?. Ever heard "Mike Colgan is a friend of this [FSDO] office?" Our school stopped using the FSDO which was on the field and the owner took it up the chain of command. With that said, you're going to have to learn to be an actor in this field. Hold your convictions, but play the game. "Own your mistakes" is sometimes code word for "eat crow so I, the examiner/interviewer am vindicated in my narrow little view". Esp. in the airlines, which has a fair amt. of instructors who never were a CFI, have no clue what the FOI's are and don't care AND who still think their job is to "wash you out", rather than instruct.

Regionals are going to hire you with 4 busts, because they have no choice and they have training depts. to do their own evaluating. If you get thru training and do well, and keep passing checkrides, those 4 busts will dim on your resume. Don't let someone on this board with their own twisted motives decide your career. Also beware the "old school" guys, There's a lot to be learned from them, but you have to separate good advice from jaded or entrenched opinion. KEEP AT IT and bust your butt! You will make it! P.S. you gotta have thick skin; just wait 'till you get on line and have to do a month of 4 days with "a captain on everyone else's no fly list".

Why do you want sub-standard pilots flying in the NAS?

No, you will not lose heading, unless you fail to control the airplane. That's the whole point of the practical test standard: you're supposed to be competent enough to maintain heading.

You DO understand that a wing dropping does NOT equate to a heading change unless you allow it, RIGHT??

And yet you took the job, knowing the salary.

No, you didn't say you're blaming it on someone. You didn't have to. You said you failed because you chose the wrong FSDO. You don't have to say you're putting the blame elsewhere, because it's very obvious that you are. You keep saying it, over and over and over.

You're not explaining jack. You're making excuses.

The airplane dropped a wing, and a heading can't be held with a wing "dropped." It's shocking that the rest of the pilot population might be able to bank and yet hold a heading, but you can't, and subsequently fail, and it's the fault of the FSDO, because if you'd chosen a place that goes easier on you, they'd have let it slide...so your failure is going to the wrong FSDO You've repeated it several times now. There's no question that your blame is on the FSDO for failing you, and you're taking a round about way of saying it. Your failure, you say, is going to the wrong FSDO...should have gone somewhere easier. You're making excuses, trying to transfer the blame to the "wrong FSDO," and you keep insisting that basic aircraft control isn't possible...when a wing drops, the heading changes, you say.

Why do you suppose that even private pilots are given practical standards to uphold...because it's impossible, and no one can do it? Or perhaps because it's easily within the realm of any pilot worth his weight in wet salt, and it's expected that you can do this simple thing, if you want to pass the checkride?

Four checkride busts. You ARE the same that posted as Flat408. Deny it all you want. Your situations are identical. You've posted under a third name recently too, I believe. Your syntax, excuses, and situation are practically identical. There's no question that you're the same person, and your denial of that also speaks volumes for you.

Your initial posts sounded like two busts, but just like Flat408, you've busted four times, haven't made it very far or to a PIC position, are quitting early, and your'e making the same excuses. You're the same person.

It's definitely the same person. Besides the points you pointed out, they both use the identical spaces when using commas and periods. He/she is not a very bright person. Don't waste your time with this loser.

I don't. But what is standard? Are you assuming a person can't improve?

I know very good, conscientious pilots that have busted check rides, myself included. I've flown with check airman who have told me to approach the wrong runway, given me wrong DH info, and have wanted to depart during incoming thunderstorms. Are they above standard? Check ride pressure, where you are being evaluated, is not the same pressure as flying, in even in emergency.

I don't know this person's whole story, but people can improve and I do know the mentality in aviation of the "zero sum game" where others think they can reduce competition through badgering and authoritative opinion. In every other field, failure is accepted as a learning and growing process. How many times did Edison fail? Safety is not the issue, because a PROPERLY run training dept. will weed out those unsafe. Also the 1500 hr reqmt. helps a lot with that.

A checkride doesn't ruin a carer, failed or otherwise. Many pilots have had training failures at some point in their career, myself included.

There is a big difference from recognizing one's mistakes and owning them, and learning from them, vs. attempting to transfer blame elsewhere.

One ought not carry that attitude into an interview, because it's not the training failures themselves that will shoot him down.

It's the low flying attitude.