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Old 02-16-2017, 01:05 PM   #1  
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Default NAI and outcomes

Hello everybody,

I recently read through a lot of the posts on NAI and I wanted to start a different discussion on the subject. I myself have been at a regional for a while and at first I saw NAI as an opportunity here in the U.S.; so have many other pilot's I've talked to and discussed about as well.

Now before ya'll start blowing steam I'd like to say I'm not directly taking a stance on being opposed or in favor of all that's going on. I just want to get a better understanding of certain topics and discuss it all without insulting each other.

I think this whole NAI thing is going to happen whether we like it or not, and instead of all of us just arguing and complaining about it on the internet we should look into finding ways for NAI or for our industry, if it opposes completely every pilot's vision on respectful airmen work, to change for a positive outcome rather than boycotting and blacklisting people who choose to work there.

In the end, I believe we're all in the same game and going against a group of pilots operating here, in our territory, just because we dislike their parent companies, is just unprofessional.

So, most of what I read has to do with everyone feeling NAI pilot's would be undercutting/throwing others under the bus here in the U.S. Why is that exactly?

Is it because NAI pilots would be working at an airline that pays them less compared to wages at UAL/AA/Delta for the same type of aircrafts being flown?

Is it because NAI isn't going to have union representation?

What says or determines that NAI won't ever have worker's representation here in the U.S. or that their salaries won't ever be comparable to those at mainline?

If NAI's rates for international or domestic flights competes and raises eyebrows with U.S. carriers, why is that so bad? why wouldn't U.S. carriers be able to compete and offer or make competitive decisions to uphold the changes in the industry?

This question, specifically taken from the thread about blacklisting NAI's future pilot's, why does everyone think it would be a good decision to blacklist an entire pilot's group? Is this really what we've become? Just because we don't agree with something or someone we blacklist them?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume NAI's U.S. based pilot's would be governed by all FAA regulations as well as DOT standards. Right? Wouldn't they have the same 117 rules applied to them? and wouldn't they also become CASS participants in the U.S.?

How is NAI "killing american jobs" if they're hiring U.S. citizens for U.S. based jobs?

Again, I'm just trying to take things from a neutral side. This NAI thing is gonna happen and they're going to have pilots working for them. I only see it as detrimental for aviation as a whole if pilot's are actively trying to shut down other pilots.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:09 PM   #2  
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Your post reeks of seeking affirmation to apply there. I see right through you.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:28 PM   #3  
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You will have higher pay and better QOL at your regional than NAI. NAI is putting downward pressure on all pilot pay everywhere. People going to NAI are essentially taking money away from your future self at a major. In my eyes their is no justification for anyone who chooses to go there. Just another pilot, please review the flag of convenience scheme again.

Last edited by Half wing; 02-16-2017 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Grammar error
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:38 PM   #4  
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FLAG OF CONVENIENCE!!!! Google it!

Also it's not necessarily US citizens, it's US based crews.

No CASS and no 117. You would work for an EU airline that doesn't even visit its flag country.

It's not about NAI it's about what NAI represents. It could be the beginning of a massive techtonic shift in how airlines are run. It's purely a way to escape taxes, skirt regulatory oversight, and do whatever you want to labor. Why do you think everyone on a cruise ship works 16hrs s day 7 days a week? For them it comes out to about $1.50/hr and their happy to do it because in the third world they wouldn't have a job at all. Most of those cruise companies are American companies yet they flag their ships in the Bahamas or Panama or Malta. Ever wonder why they do that? And they laugh all the way to the bank.

Just wait until China's training pipeline gets sorted out and the worlds flag of convenience carriers start recruiting from there instead of here or Europe. This career will turn into being a subway operator and it will be because guys like you didn't get it!

Last edited by Qotsaautopilot; 02-16-2017 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:21 PM   #5  
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Default NAI and outcomes

He's obviously already applied.

And if you've done so much research and don't realize the issue is Flag of Convenience then I don't know what to tell you.

It's not that they have low pay. Even though that sucks it's not the issue.
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:31 PM   #6  
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They have already "globalized" aircraft manufacturing and maintenance with complete success. I don't know how the operation side will escape a similar fate. It looks like flying will homogenize into an average middle class job. By that time the US, EU, and third world will reach parity. People will do it for love rather than money. All the frat boys will have to chase status somewhere else.
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:40 PM   #7  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevbo View Post
They have already "globalized" aircraft manufacturing and maintenance with complete success. I don't know how the operation side will escape a similar fate. It looks like flying will homogenize into an average middle class job. People will do it for love rather than money. All the frat boys will have to chase status somewhere else.
Yep. The model used by the rest of the world (except the European/Pacific Rim legacies) will be allowed to wreak havoc here.

Short-term contracts with temp agencies. No unionization. DEC's. Training bonds (indentured servitude.) No loyalty in either direction (aka ME3.) No career positions.

And guys will justify it because a legacy hasn't called them yet.
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:47 PM   #8  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstanotherpilot View Post
Hello everybody,

I recently read through a lot of the posts on NAI and I wanted to start a different discussion on the subject. I myself have been at a regional for a while and at first I saw NAI as an opportunity here in the U.S.; so have many other pilot's I've talked to and discussed about as well.

Now before ya'll start blowing steam I'd like to say I'm not directly taking a stance on being opposed or in favor of all that's going on. I just want to get a better understanding of certain topics and discuss it all without insulting each other.

I think this whole NAI thing is going to happen whether we like it or not, and instead of all of us just arguing and complaining about it on the internet we should look into finding ways for NAI or for our industry, if it opposes completely every pilot's vision on respectful airmen work, to change for a positive outcome rather than boycotting and blacklisting people who choose to work there.

In the end, I believe we're all in the same game and going against a group of pilots operating here, in our territory, just because we dislike their parent companies, is just unprofessional.

So, most of what I read has to do with everyone feeling NAI pilot's would be undercutting/throwing others under the bus here in the U.S. Why is that exactly?

Is it because NAI pilots would be working at an airline that pays them less compared to wages at UAL/AA/Delta for the same type of aircrafts being flown?

Is it because NAI isn't going to have union representation?

What says or determines that NAI won't ever have worker's representation here in the U.S. or that their salaries won't ever be comparable to those at mainline?

If NAI's rates for international or domestic flights competes and raises eyebrows with U.S. carriers, why is that so bad? why wouldn't U.S. carriers be able to compete and offer or make competitive decisions to uphold the changes in the industry?

This question, specifically taken from the thread about blacklisting NAI's future pilot's, why does everyone think it would be a good decision to blacklist an entire pilot's group? Is this really what we've become? Just because we don't agree with something or someone we blacklist them?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume NAI's U.S. based pilot's would be governed by all FAA regulations as well as DOT standards. Right? Wouldn't they have the same 117 rules applied to them? and wouldn't they also become CASS participants in the U.S.?

How is NAI "killing american jobs" if they're hiring U.S. citizens for U.S. based jobs?

Again, I'm just trying to take things from a neutral side. This NAI thing is gonna happen and they're going to have pilots working for them. I only see it as detrimental for aviation as a whole if pilot's are actively trying to shut down other pilots.


By severely undercutting the Legacy carriers!!! Yeah so they hire American citizens...big whoop. They are gonna be paid garbage wages to fly across the Atlantic. Probably all of their employees are going to be paid horrible wages, hence why they can charge fares that will be compareable to Greyhound or Amtrak, or less.

Most of the flying public looks for the cheapest fare. So they'll fly on NAI if they can. Don't you see how that will be tough for the American carriers to compete against??
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:00 PM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstanotherpilot View Post

I myself have been at a regional for a while and at first I saw NAI as an opportunity here in the U.S.; so have many other pilot's I've talked to and discussed about as well.
Question for you, how can you be at a regional airline "for a while" and be so completely clueless about NAI and similar FOC schemes? There's NO shortage of education out there.
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:35 PM   #10  
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano View Post
Yep. The model used by the rest of the world (except the European/Pacific Rim legacies) will be allowed to wreak havoc here.



Short-term contracts with temp agencies. No unionization. DEC's. Training bonds (indentured servitude.) No loyalty in either direction (aka ME3.) No career positions.



And guys will justify it because a legacy hasn't called them yet.


Agreed. Once cabotage goes away and there's universal open skies I expect the US airlines, or whatever airlines dominate the US, to operate like the majority of European airlines. Short term contracts. 120k narrow body captains, maybe 150k for widebodies.

Hopefully some higher paying US jobs stay around like the European and Japanese legacies you mentioned.
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