Time for another Delta intervention
 

Korean Air shrugs off pilot's attempt to drink alcohol during flight
Posted : 2019-07-09 14:17 Updated : 2019-07-10 10:09

Cabin crew chief demoted for leaking incident

By Park Si-soo

A Korean Air pilot allegedly attempted to drink cups of alcoholic drink during a flight in December. But the airline shrugged it off and disciplined a cabin crew chief who reprimanded the pilot and reported the case to the company, broadcaster CBS reported on Tuesday.

The incident happened on Dec. 30 on an Amsterdam-bound Korean Air flight from Incheon, South Korea. According to CBS, the captain, while walking past a tray of welcoming drinks, tried to pick up a glass of champagne. As a cabin crew member blocked him, saying "you can't drink alcohol," the captain said, "Then you can give it (to me) in a paper cup" and then picked up a non-alcoholic drink.

Hours later, in the middle of the flight, the captain asked the cabin crew to bring "a cup of wine." The crew member refused and reported the case to the cabin crew chief.

The chief told crew members, including the co-pilot, on condition they would remain silent until landing. The decision was made out of concern that if the captain knew it might destabilize his mental state.

But the co-pilot told the captain before landing, resulting in an on-board altercation between the cabin crew chief and the co-pilot. After landing in Amsterdam, the cabin crew chief formally complained and wrote about the incident on the company's anonymous online message board.

Korean Air summoned the captain and the cabin crew chief. Then came a surprise ― the company closed the case with a verbal warning to the captain and demoting the cabin crew chief for being responsible for the in-flight conflict.

Korean Air called the decision "fair."

"It's true the captain made a controversial action, but it didn't cause a real trouble," a Korean Air official said.

Regarding the demotion of the cabin crew chief, the official said the chief was responsible for using "insulting words during the altercation and revealing the internal issue."

Ya....its been tried.

Just imagine if they took away drinks on deadheads at Korean.

Captains are still gods overseas.

Wouldn’t say “Gods”, but clearly treated with better respect.

I'm not sure "respect" in this case is the right word. Preference seems the better word.

Just because an American CA wouldn't get that kind of special treatment, doesn't mean they aren't respected here.

Never stated as such... just commented on CAs of foreign carriers.

No matter the carrier or location... respect is a two way street.

Ah...I thought “treated with better respect” was a comparison to US pilots, but I see you meant in reference to their cabin crew.

You think Captains are treated with respect on American air carriers? By who??

You don’t think you are treated with respect? I would like to hear examples of how a Captain has been disrespected. I am 64 years old and have been doing this for a while. I have never in my career had the feeling that I was being disrespected when I was in a position of authority as a Captain.

Having flown overseas for 9 years in the middle of my career, I can and will attest to the Overseas Captain being more respected than US captains.

At my previous legacy... with some "granny-type" flight atts, they truly thought they ruled the cabin and I personally heard one say to the captain after a quick brief, "You take care of the cockpit sonny, I'll take care of the cabin". It was meant as a bit of a chest pounding by the F/A, senior mama that she was. If I'm lyin' I'm dyin'.

That was one of several times that I saw it.

Overseas, one example.... it was protocol as we got off the bus into the hotel lobby, that the captain was always first to sign in and get his key. Flight attends would all just line up and wait for the captain inside the lobby along the desk.

Just one example of many I saw and felt overseas.

Kap

I always tried to get along, I would ask them how high they were going to fly their buffet sos' I could keep the airplane up with it.:D

I see and experience the difference even as a "lowly" First Officer whenever I operate to most international destinations. Truly is refreshing.

Same, FAs had to ask me if they could board (would stand outside in the rain waiting for me), use their phone, smoke on board (yes!!). If I asked for a coffee service would stop until I had my coffee. Funniest (to me) was Switzerland where the Captain would get a better hotel room. I would always have the FO wear my jacket....
Was it better? not always, but some of it was nice.

Are you kidding me? We actually have intelligent men who think for one second, that the above examples were out of respect for the Captain??? I can guarantee you that if you left the FA’s in the rain that respect is the last thing on their minds. Give me the above self sufficient FA who I know will handle things well in an emergency over the group of subservient workers who have to wait for permission before undertaking any task. Respect is earned not granted by company manual.

It is a respect for the position. Having flown stateside for 25 years then 11 years overseas.....the ability of the international F/As is every bit as good as their US counterparts. EK crashed a 777 in Dubai and the cabin crew did an incredible job evacuating the plane. Yet on a layover, as Kap stated, they would respect the position to check in. Stateside, I had a few occasions where I was TOLD they didn't have to either listen or ignored instructions/briefings/etc. Never overseas and have seen almost "wrestling matches" to get to the check-in desk first to get their "deserved" rooms. In fact, I have seen where the desk clerks would allow familiar F/As hand out the keys and sign everybody in. Just the nature of the beast.

I'll add one more thing. Disrespect and lack of respect are two different animals.

It seems us pilots have quite a need to feel respected.

“When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.”
Proverbs 11:2

This is true. I spend most of my life in the US airlines and have been overseas now for 10 years. The Cabin Crew (as we call them) in my current overseas airline are FAR superior to what I see in the USA legacy carriers in every category. MUCH higher level of professionalism and discipline. Much harder working. MUCH higher standards all the way around. It almost is pure pain for me to fly on a USA airline now, they just seem so sloppy all the way around. It is no wonder that the USA airlines never make it even close to the top 10 worldwide in SkyTraxx airline awards (which are based on millions of passengers voting).

Our pilots check in first at the hotel. I don't like it. I'd rather go last as I always did in the States. But it is the company culture here and that is the way they want it. You can't change it. The cabin crews will absolutely refuse to accept a key before the cockpit crew. No use making them feel uncomfortable and making a big deal out of something you can't change anyway. I am ALWAYS addressed by my title as "Captain -----" in all communications with ALL staff at every level in the airline. I usually am given a suite or at least an upgraded room at the hotel, along with access to the executive lounge for free breakfast / happy hour. This is negotiated into our hotel contracts by the company.

I worked in one overseas airline where the cabin crew wouldn't set foot on the bus or walk up the stairs to the airplane until the captain gave them permission. Seemed crazy to me and I was never comfortable with it, but once again when you work overseas you're not there to change their company culture. You're there to fit into their system, not tell them why ours is better. In the USA, we are a low power-distance culture. Some of these other countries are high power-distance cultures. It is what it is. And from a safety standpoint, I see definite advantages to the overseas system.

The downside is that you lose the familiarity and family feeling when everything is so formal. The USA airline scene (at least in my experience) is a "fun" place to work, and the companies in the USA even emphasize the need to have fun on the job. They want to promote a family atmosphere. Not overseas. We're not there for fun. We're there to work, and to perform to the highest standards and to do so precisely by the book (which is constantly changing because they are constantly refining the system to get better and better based on feedback). Our goal is to simply be the best there is, and fun has nothing to do with it. And so there isn't a lot of going out and socializing on layovers. That is a real downside of the formal system.

I have worked in the States, Asia, and now in Europe for several years. My strong preference is Europe. Respect for the flight deck crew as in Asia, but not so formal that you cannot go out and socialize with the cabin crew. I agree that most non-U.S. airline cabin crew are far superior to their U.S. counterparts in terms of professionalism and discipline. It is a bit painful to fly on U.S. carriers now.

If that what you’ve opined after reading this thread, it’s because it’s what you wanted to. I’ve seen no US Captain complaining about a lack of respect. Just several Expats talking about how much better it is in their World, and how painful it is to ride on US carriers now.

Ok, I just reread the thread and stabapch did suggest US Captains weren’t respected. One post got you to “US Captains are full of themselves and need to feel respected.”

The treatment overall of the flight crew is far better in many companies abroad than it is in the US, by far! You will never get attitude from a gate agent or a dispatcher for example, never! The different groups (ground staff, operations folks etc.) Seem to be more in tune with working together to have the operation work smoothly, as opposed to the US where the different groups are always protecting their little "island of power" you will never have some scheduler snap back at you or tell you to talk to the union if you don't like it, I've had people from operations hang up the phone on me because I called for a lav service during a quick turnaround, as opposed to never having to call anyone for that in the 13 years that I have been working in japan for example! I've never had to call to ask where is the crew transport, nor have I called to arrange a reservation for the company checker because the company forgot to do it, these things just don't happen in many companies abroad as it is pretty much standard operations at airlines in the US, Do you encounter situations like that often in the US? Well, no but they do happen.

It is not about captains being full of themselves or anything like that, it is just a comparison based on our experience working in different markets, it is a fact that the entire operation is more respectful of the flight crew.

Now, haven said that! Training is an area where it is much better in the US, training (Specially in Asia) it's a ridiculous culture game where the adjustment to their way is for more important than airmanship! How well you fly is of little relevance as long as you do their stupid calls and you do the theater performance as the little movie script dictates.

The training in the US is far superior and much more pragmatic and practical than what they think is training here in Asia!

My Sentiments exactly!

In my experience, yes and no. Training in Asia was terrible when I was there.

In my current company, training is excellent. We have the same type of authorization (AQP) as the US has for once-a-year training, but we still do 2 days (8 hours of Sim) every 6 months, and everything is graded and goes into our permanent record. We do multiple LOFT type scenarios and they are very challenging. I continually feel "stretched" by our training, more so than I ever did in the USA.

Having said that, I will add that most of the pilots overseas come up through a "multi-pilot training program" where they get a "frozen ATP" and they are in the right seat of a narrow body jet right out of flight school. They have 2,000-3,000+ hours in a narrow body before my current company hires them, so they know how to operate a jet in the airline environment. BUT, these MPL training programs emphasize procedures as a compensation for low experience, and it just doesn't cut it in my view. Also, the foreign airlines emphasize use of automation and they download the flight data without any union oversight or de-identification of crew, so everyone lives in fear of making a mistake, which results in more dependency on automation. The result is a lack of stick and rudder skills, automation dependency, and emphasis on procedure over common sense or airmanship. The USA style system that brings a guy/gal up through flight instructing or flying night freight to build PIC experience is second to none in my view, but it is simply impossible in most of the world. It is only the USA, Australia and New Zealand that have a significant general aviation base to provide that kind of experience.