Dont bother explaining. The fact that they cant be bothered reading any of it shows that many Americans have closed their mind on learning new concepts many moons ago. Just look at how many the flat earthers and fake news believers there are in America.

Are all the pilots employed by the company or they're independant "self-employed" contractor like Ryan air ?

Oh we understand the shell game. We just don't see how it benefits labor. How much do NAI pilots make again?

Negative. Many Americans (as in pilots in this country) want to see them die because their 787 captains were making less than 737s at SWA, UAL, AA, or UAL.

Also, the management of those airlines want to see them die because they’ve depressed yield on the international routes with their ridiculously cheap fairs.

Then why don't you want to see BA, Lufthansa, SAS, and every other European airline die? They all pay significantly less than their U.S. counterparts. Norwegian was nowhere near the bottom when it came to wide body pay among European carriers. Isn't every airline guilty of depressing yields on routes? Unless they are colluding with one another, they are in competition and depressing yields. Southwest is the airline it is today because it spent decades undercutting yields in the States (i.e. "The Southwest Effect"). Still failing to see the reason for the vitriol. Given their mismanagement and recklessness, I would think the response would be more tilted towards bewilderment and amusement towards Norwegian, not anger, especially considering U.S. pilots were experiencing arguably the best contracts and work rules of the deregulation era. I guess I could see anger if they were hiring third world pilots to operate European routes, while pilots were generally struggling as they did in the post 9/11 era, but that is not what was happening. Oh well. Long haul is gone, and as expected, they are re-structuring to be a smaller Nordic focused short-haul carrier.

Yep. It is a bit of a yawn. It is both tiring and strangely fascinating to see you guys get all angry and red in the face, and yet be so obviously ignorant as to the reasons why you are angry. It is almost like you are mindless drones who were told by their leader to be angry, so you got angry, and when presented with the evidence that shows why your anger is unjustified or misdirected, you ignore that because it doesn't fit in with the comfortable narrative their leader told them. Just look at the responses in this thread, there is a lot of "that's too complex for me to understand", and "I am not going to bother to read that", and just general deflection or ignoring of questions. If you don't have the self awareness to recognize your ignorance and that you are actively avoiding looking at evidence that might contradict your anger is actually quite pathetic. The verifiable evidence and explanations have been presented many times in this forum, with multiple links, and in a format nothing more than two or three paragraphs of reading, and you guys claim that is "too complicated" for you. Perhaps I should take your money and use it produce a three minute cartoon, that seems to be the most effective way of reaching you.

I will ask a simple question again, who did Norwegian outsource to?

No one here is angry or red in the face. In fact it seems you are the one most frustrated that no one agrees with your garbage. US airlines flying to the EU use American flight crews. EU airlines flying to the US use EU flight crews. NAI flies from the EU to the US using an irish flag and crews from Bangkok. I personally don't care to hear your or anyone else's logic behind their hiring practices so keep pounding your drum until you're red in the face, glad they're done. I also hope and suspect that no US based carrier will hire any of these labor undercutting hacks either.

I don’t see anyone on this thread beating their chests about the pay disparities between mainline pilots and their regional counterparts flying the same routes (aka outsourcing)... Why is that??? Justifiable double standard do I detect?

Start the fight for parody in pay in benefits on your home turf before trying to fix problems beyond your turf.

Flags of convenience - just look at the ocean shipping industry to see how that worked out for labor.

NAI did not use any Bangkok flight crews. The only crew base in BKK was a 787 crew base, which was operated by NAS, not NAI. That is lie number 1 that ALPA sold to you in their cartoon, Norwegian did not require a new Irish based AOC to open a BKK crew base, they were able to do that just fine with the Norwegian based AOC. There was only one pilot in BKK who was not a citizen of an EU/EEA country, and he was Australian. ALPA conveniently forgot to tell you that in their cartoon. As for the theory that the purpose of BKK was to screw labor by having lower costs, the BKK pilot base was closed almost two years ago as it was determined to not be cost effective and was always the smallest 787 base, behind LGW, CPH, CDG, FCO, BCN and even FLL. If it were cost effective, and served the purpose of screwing labor, it doesn't make any sense to keep it so small and then ultimately close it.

For the record, as of January 2018, the 787 pilot seniority list for Norwegian showed the following nationality breakdown:
115 Norwegians
112 Dutch
110 British
90 Swedish
81 Danish
60 German
47 French
42 Italian
30 Belgian
27 Spanish
23 Irish
20 American
19 Austrian
13 Finnish
10 Swiss
6 Portugal
2 Czech
2 Hungarian
2 Latvian
1 Australian
1 Canadian
1 Lithuanian

Outside of the 1 Australian and 1 Canadian, they were all European or American.

Long-haul ultra low cost just doesn't work, except in rare instances, so why are U.S. legacies able to make long haul work and pay lucrative salaries? That's what American pilots want to see more of. The rates at NAI, NAS, NUK, WTF or whatever convoluted organization it was, were abysmal especially considering the equiptment and mission....that is irrefutable, so the failure of the model, in spite of the wage suppression, is something all pilots should celebrate. I strongly doubt ALPA was lying about it being a clear case of labor arbitrage/flag of convenience. In the U.S. we also have carriers taking advantage of desperate pilots as well, cue Atlas air and much of the regional industry. Nothing is perfect anywhere but doesn't mean a justice boner isn't in order here. Nothing personal euro dudes.

Then why not the anger towards BA, Virgin Atlantic, Aer Lingus, SAS, Tui, Brussel Airlines, Edelweiss, Level, and other airlines who fly (or have recently flown) transatlantic routes to the States who have multiple AOCs, multiple layers of working conditions and contracts, contract employees, and most of all similar or even lower pay than Norwegian had? Why was Norwegian singled out? Was it because of the ALPA cartoon and their membership who find two or three paragraphs of reading to be "too complex"?

787 pilots based in CPH, CDG, FCO, and BCN were employed by the company. 787 pilots based in FLL and with more than three years of seniority in LGW were employed by a partially owned subsidiary. Pilots based in BKK and with less than 3 years in LGW were employed through an agency (Rishworth/GlobalCrew UK). All pilots, regardless of base or contract, were on the seniority list and base bidding and upgrades were handled through that seniority list. So a BKK pilot employed through an agency could (and often did) bid for a CDG base and would then be directly employed by the company. In theory it could have happened the other way too, but BKK began downsizing almost immediately after it opened, so pilots who bid for the BKK base were not awarded it.

Good riddance. The company underpriced their seats to the point where they would never be profitable. And as a result, many consumers incorrectly believed that Norwegian was pricing its fares correctly. They had their prices so low that they needed to recapitalize at least once a year. It has been an airline run by morons, losing money hand over fist.

It;s bad actor airlines like this that destabilize the business.

I think they were trying to buy themselves market share, as long as someone else was willing to prop them up while they did it. They hoped they would be able to keep what they got when the party stopped, and adjust fares to a profit.

Then covid... not only did the party stop, but the house burned down,and the police showed up and shot everybody.



Yes.

No question the leadership, especially Bjorn Kjoss, were morons.

I have to wonder what would have happened if Covid were not a factor. Kjoss and company were ousted about a year prior to the Covid outbreak, and the company was in the midst of a massive restructuring.

There's a short period of time where it's acceptable to sell tickets below cost. Norwegian was selling TATL tickets below cost for as long as they flew TATL. That 'buying market share' strategy should have ended a few months into their debacle. And this problem was never addressed by any Norwegian management; they continued to try to sell their product below cost until the very end.

Frankly, I was shocked at the number of times they were able to recapitalize. I was shocked that there were so many fools willing to throw money at this hopeless business model. TATL simply cannot be done in an LCC structure.

Thank you. There shouldn't be any legacy or regional pilots ragging on anyone else about outsourcing and "bringing down the profession". The hypocrisy is disgusting.

Regionals don't fly widebodies.

The principle is the same. Your argument might've had legs to stand if the routes flown by the regionals weren't often the same as the mainline fleet.

No it's not, people who fly smaller planes which generate less revenue get paid less.

Yes, in general the more difficulty in filling a position, complexity, knowledge, responsibility, experience, revenue / profit generation results in more pay for employees.

I see what you did there.

Doesn't matter which of the big three you fly for, I need only say two words:
American Eagle
Delta Connection
United Express

You can't tell me it's not outsourcing. You can't tell me the pay and benefits are the same. There's a reason for the outsourcing...

you are paid (roughly) by how large the plane you fly is. 717 pays less than a 737 which pays less than an A330. Delta connection is not flying 737s, they are flying planes less than 1/2 the seat count. ( all 3 legacies cap RJs at 76 seats, 737 carries ~180) Just like Air France regional or air Nordstrom.

also a significant reason you mentioned is bankruptcy, prior to post 9/11 bankruptcies most majors heavily limited RJs in general but specifically those with more than 50 seats.

Regardless of your excuses and rationalizations, it's still simple hypocrisy. Don't scream at your neighbor for "harming the profession" with outsourcing and disparaging wages/benefits, while it's happening in your own backyard.

What about Lufthansa Cityline flying Lufthansa mainline A340? But nobody complains about Lufthansa

Star Alliance codeshares (and any other methods of increasing mainline profit sharing) are off limits to criticism on this website.

Looks like some folks actually get it.

Don't forget that there have been many times when mainline was shrinking and furloughing, while the poverty wage paying regionals were expanding and taking over routes formerly flown by mainline.

You mean the CA flying a 777 is paid more than the CA in developing countries still flying the rugged DC-3? 🤪

Not screaming at them, just want them to stay on their side of the fence. They can drag the euro domestic industry to new lows if they like.

Also not sure if you noticed but the current generation of mainline pilots (which includes me) has dug in their heels pretty hard on outsourcing. Even with covid, there's no sign of scope relief.

Oh, Cityline (regional carrier) is much better paid than their A330 pilots flying for the Eurowings brand, non-unionized of course. Around €110k for those CPTs as max pay. Since that was too expensive for Lufty, they now outsource it to their new project "Ocean" recently renamed Eurowings Discover with even lower pay, again, non-unionized and financed by the german government to the tune of 9 billion.

As a LoCo FO i get paid more than those Lufty longhaul captains...

By the way, with Lufty mainline there is no aircraft dependent salary, A320 crew get paid the same as A380 (well, until they stopped flying that fleet that is).

This is what you've told me so far:

1. "Our outsourcing of mainline jobs is OK because regionals aren't flying wide bodies.."
   No comment..
   
2. "Less compensation/benefits for our outsourced jobs is OK because smaller planes pay less anyway."
   (Which is a joke and you know it. If it was that simple the RJs would be flown by your pilots)
   
3. "It's OK if Norwegian outsources jobs as long as their practices don't affect my airline's market and my profit."
   Well OK then.
   
4. "I claim to hold the moral high ground over Norwegian because I dug my heels on scope."
   Big deal. Take the flying back or be quiet. No trophies just for showing up. Also, see #3...

Norwegian pilots in Europe, including those that were on the 787, were unionized and paid industry average wages for Europe. But of course your 3 minute cartoon implied otherwise, so who cares about the truth.

there is a huge difference between having some of your regional feed outsourced with limits on how many jets and how many seats vs outsourcing wide bodies flown with your paint job. I agree with other posters that our anger should be geared at any carrier that uses alter ego airlines.

I’d be happy to bring all flying to mainline as would most mainline pilots, however the companies were able to get the RJs outsourced in BK and unfortunately for us, there is not much that can be done to get them back in house. I think Rick is right that most current pilots have zero interest in giving up scope further, but getting the genie back in the bottle on this one is gonna be next to impossible

I disagree. If you don't think "American Eagle" is alter ego, then you've been successfully brainwashed or are playing dumb for your narrative. In the end you're still selling jobs. The only difference is certain people were allowed to keep the best jobs/pay/benefits for themselves. But once those people are threatened by similar outsourcing practices, suddenly it's wrong and every pilot should be united against it...
I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult. But "dug my heels PRETTY HARD on scope" literally means nothing. There is no justification for self praise while accepting the contractor-subsidized profit-sharing check. There is no reason to take moral high ground over Norwegian while mainline jobs are sold to contractors with subpar wages/benefits here at home.

I don’t think we will see eye to eye on this and that’s ok, but there is a difference between allowing specific aircraft smaller than anything you fly to be subcontracted and having alter ego airlines. Endeavor can’t just start flying Delta’s a330s. I personally have no beef with NLH, I’m not happy to see them fail. any issues I had with Norwegian stem from flag of Convenience operations which NLH was not doing.

Those jobs were shipped off in BK, I’m sure if mainline pilots agreed to a 70% pay cut and give up all our work rules management might think about it but I don’t see a scenario where we are able to take back scope without decimating the rest of our contract, it’s too valuable to management to be able to outsource that flying. Most non military pilots start at the regionals but a solid majority move on to a major after they upgrade.

on a side note, I’m assuming you are a euro pilot, how do major airlines in Europe hire pilots? Does a pilot go to work for Lufthansa city line then apply to Lufthansa? What about LCCs, can you work at low cost carrier then apply to a network carrier (like Lufthansa, KLM, SAS etc)?

That’s because you sold the work before the planes were bought. You think that’s a good excuse? It's OK because the effect didn't come before the cause?? The labor was still sold. Something like 40% of U.S. departures are regional carriers, carrying roughly 20% of U.S. passengers. Maybe make some progress on this before anyone starts sticking their noses up and praising themselves for doing some "pretty hard heel digging" on outsourcing.

At least 1 is major has, in 2012 DL had something like 800 RJs, now that number is 415. And mainline must do 1.88 mainline departures per RJ departure. That’s significant progress in my eyes. Again, when a BK judge gives management a blank check with the scope section of your contract, it takes time to undo that carnage. The last time the contract was changed to increase the total number of jets to be outsourced was in 2006, over half of DL’s pilots have been hired since then.

scope being a battle here doesn’t mean we can’t have an opinion of flag of Convenience schemes that could have a significant negative impact on our careers. I also know that NLH was not a foc and again am not happy or celebrating the fact they are cutting the airline