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Singapore A380 Salary Minimum Set

Old 05-25-2007, 12:44 PM
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Default Singapore A380 Salary Minimum Set

SINGAPORE (AFP) - A Singapore arbitration court ruled Friday that pilots who fly the super jumbo Airbus A380 should be paid more than those on conventional jumbo jets, setting a benchmark that could have global implications.
The Industrial Arbitration Court judgement settled a pay dispute between Singapore Airlines, the launch customer for the double-decker A380, and its pilots.
A three-member panel ruled that the minimum salary for captains on the A380 -- the world's biggest passenger plane -- will be 700 dollars (458 US) a month more than that for captains on the Boeing 747-400 (744) conventional jumbo jet.
"The minimum salary point for captains on the Airbus 380 salary range will be 700 dollars more than the minimum salary point for the B-744 salary range," said the panel, consisting of a representative each from the airline and the pilots, as well as a judge.
The basic pay for a B-744 captain is 10,000 dollars a month, SIA told the hearing.
In its ruling, the court said the maximum salary for A380 captains will remain at 16,500, the B-744 maximum.
The court also said the minimum for first officers on the super jumbo will be 450 dollars more than on the 747-400.
Both sides welcomed the decision and acknowledged they were breaking new ground.
"We recognise there is no market data for the 380," the Air Line Pilots Association Singapore (ALPA-S) president, Captain P. James, told reporters.
"The A380 is a new aircraft," said Singapore Airlines' spokesman Stephen Forshaw. "There's very little by way of an international benchmark to measure things."
Tom Ballantyne, chief correspondent for the industry magazine Orient Aviation, told AFP that A380 pilots from each country will have to set their pay scales individually, but the Singapore case could be used as a reference point.
"A union making a claim for new rates may bring that into the argument," Ballantyne said.
James said the amount of the salary award was "fine" even though it was below the 1,000 dollars sought by the union.
"It's at least more than half-way of what we wanted," James said.
Forshaw said the court's decision brings an end to the dispute.
"The judgement now gives us some certainty to move forward," he said. "The pilots are very keen to get this aircraft into service."
SIA wanted to peg the A380 pilots' pay to that of the wage scale for the Boeing B777, where a captain earns a starting monthly salary of 9,300 Singapore dollars.
During the hearing, an SIA official said physical differences between the A380 and the Boeing 777-300 and 747-400 would have little impact on piloting due to similarities in system technologies, cockpit layout and instrumentation.
While the A380 is heavier than other Airbus and Boeing jets, the weight difference is managed by a high level of automation and other aerospace technologies, the official said.
James countered during his arguments that flying different aircraft is "not as easy as changing cars".
In its decision, the court said that "a pilot has very heavy responsibilities for the safety of passengers, crew, cargo and the aircraft" regardless of the ease or difficulty of flying the plane.
SIA, one of the most profitable carriers in the business, is scheduled to receive the first of its A380s in October after a series of delays that plagued European manufacturer Airbus.
The airline has committed to buy 19 super jumbos.
ALPA-S, with about 1,700 members, has long been regarded as the only workers' group in Singapore willing to stand up to the government, which has kept a tight rein on industrial action.
Singapore Airlines is 57 percent owned by state-linked investment company Temasek Holdings, according to the Temasek website.
Airbus has 166 firm and tentative orders for its A380, which can carry up to 840 passengers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070525...ourdisputea380
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Old 05-25-2007, 01:50 PM
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Wow- The Max is about 10K a month. Or 120K USD a year. For a A380. Only 150K below FDX.
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Old 05-26-2007, 01:16 AM
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Nashmd11

You must be a journalist on your days off since you are "expert" for the day and have several mistakes in your one line comment.

First the 10K is base pay plus 10% override, plus 3k for housing, plus 3.5k per diem, plus 3.5k for flying hours. So a total of 21k per month. Oh BTW that is Singapore dollars and that equates to 14k USD per month. Then you have one month base pay bonus at the end of the year plus profit sharing in July which this year is another SIX months of base pay. Thus 322k per year equates to around 214k USD per year. Throw in the first 85k is U.S. tax free then compare apples to apples with FDX.

Please get your facts straight before posting.
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Old 05-26-2007, 07:43 AM
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Or at least do a little basic research before opening what really must be a large mouth.
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Old 05-26-2007, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by filejw View Post
Or at least do a little basic research before opening what really must be a large mouth.
Basic research? Am I suppose to Call Singapore HR? I'm just reading what the Reporter wrote. I dont have their Contract. But, I still will make over 300K this year. And it hasn't taken me 20 years like it will to fly the A380 as a Captain at Singapore. And I hope all your "Bonus" money comes through. This money is not gauranteed, so I never count it.
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Old 05-26-2007, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Nashmd11 View Post
Basic research? Am I suppose to Call Singapore HR? I'm just reading what the Reporter wrote. I dont have their Contract. But, I still will make over 300K this year. And it hasn't taken me 20 years like it will to fly the A380 as a Captain at Singapore. And I hope all your "Bonus" money comes through. This money is not gauranteed, so I never count it.
I'm not piling on, and I'm not slamming you. But do ALWAYS believe everything you read in a news article?

Do you also believe that ALL US airline pilots make 200K+ a year, work ONLY 75 hrs a month, and have 20 days off regardless of equipment flown or years of service?
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Old 05-26-2007, 02:20 PM
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They should. My whole point was, "I feel", we are letting wages World Wide go down the sh*ter. And it needs to be addressed. Or the profession is done. Why isn't this downward spiral happening in other professions? The AMA? Lawyer lobbyist? I just feel flying an A-380 for 10 to 15K a month is crap.
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Old 05-26-2007, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 744cargo View Post
Nashmd11

You must be a journalist on your days off since you are "expert" for the day and have several mistakes in your one line comment.

First the 10K is base pay plus 10% override, plus 3k for housing, plus 3.5k per diem, plus 3.5k for flying hours. So a total of 21k per month. Oh BTW that is Singapore dollars and that equates to 14k USD per month. Then you have one month base pay bonus at the end of the year plus profit sharing in July which this year is another SIX months of base pay. Thus 322k per year equates to around 214k USD per year. Throw in the first 85k is U.S. tax free then compare apples to apples with FDX.

Please get your facts straight before posting.
Are those "boobies" in your avatar?
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Old 05-26-2007, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Nashmd11 View Post
They should. My whole point was, "I feel", we are letting wages World Wide go down the sh*ter. And it needs to be addressed. Or the profession is done. Why isn't this downward spiral happening in other professions? The AMA? Lawyer lobbyist? I just feel flying an A-380 for 10 to 15K a month is crap.
It is a very good point that at a time when there is a very serious worldwide pilot shortage, and yes, worldwide there is, that wages have not gone up. I really can't blame the people who went to a place like Skybus to take $65K a year as an A320 skipper as I don't know what their motive/situation is and it would be wrong to comment without knowing that situation. An off-shore example would be the likes of Jade cargo, who, apparently, are paying to the tune of $5500US base for a 744 freighter skipper (they are not getting many takers so they have 'improved' the contract). Air India is paying $8500 US for a 744 skipper, also not getting many takers, or at least not the people they want. that is FO wages my friends, and they charge the same ticket prices, at least, as the western carriers. With the rest of their cost base the pilot wages should be much higher.

I've mentioned the idea of IFALPA/FAA/CAA working towards making a mandatory minimum experience requirement for part 121 pilots, with the obvious suspects telling me I'm an idiot. Instead, the airplane manufacturers, along with airlines, are pushing for this multi-crew licence, so we can have a bunch of inexperienced 'pilots' with 150 hours total time dragging wages, and frankly safety levels at international airlines way down.

This is just my opinion, but perhaps we don't need quite so many 'ultra low cost' carriers out there, able to exist because they can get us cheap. It's nice that lots of pilots are able to fly big planes, but they shouldn't be taking seriously below average wages just to do it; rock bottom pay is not my idea of 'living the dream'.

I didn't get into this so I could get paid peanuts. I expected $64K a year when I was flying night freight in a Metro III; that was what the job was worth, and probably what I was worth at the time. Heck, the first three years of my career in the sub arctic consisted of a pay check between $1500 and $2500 per month, along with scaring the crap out of myself daily.

Management consistently fails to understand what having experience in the flight deck means for overall costs, i.e.: fuel/engine savings. Ours is starting to get a bit too happy with the savings we, as a pilot group, have achieved. Minimum fuel restrictions are there so the weakest link doesn't get anyone hurt trying to save the company a couple bucks. And, one go around due to an unstable approach below the safety gate pretty much negates an entire year of saving's doing low drag approaches.

NZALPA will be dealing with the topic of the multi-crew licence directly at this years symposium. I hope that we can get thing's together enough to put a proposal out there to IFALPA, as that is the point as far as I read in the 'remit'. The US regionals have ridiculous hiring minimums for their regional jet operators. Lot's of good guys and gals out there flying C402's and the like who can fill those seats with experience, it would just take paying them properly. But it won't happen unless we put our collective foot down. 300 hours in the right seat of an RJ? I don't know.

None the less, I so understand that SQ pay has to be looked at as whole and I know it's pretty good, and I understand that they are extremely consistent with the incentive pay. But I think nashmd11 is making the correct point about eroding wages and is truly concerned about it, as we all should be. He had to read between the lines of the original post, as should people making comment on his reply.

Dentists keep wages up by limiting the number of professionals in their industry. Want a dentist, you have to wait, or pay, and it should be no different for our industry. I booked a ticket from LAX to YEG with Air Canada the other day and it was $90 each way. Great for me, bad for us as a whole. They are not making money, nor are many of the big carriers. They are a little too happy about not losing as much than last year I think. 84% break even load factor? A little downturn in the industry, inevitable really, and there they go back into chapter 11. . .again.

But I digress and this rant is no doubt boring those who are still reading; I thank you for your persistence. Let's all just at least try to keep in mind the long term effect of taking ridiculous pay just to get into a jet. The pay at SQ is great, but that isn't the same for many other carriers that mostly use contract pilots.
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Old 05-26-2007, 07:14 PM
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WOW, that was a little long winded wasn't it. Sorry ' bout that.
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