Another DESO question
 

I have looked for this answer both on this site and the other... I can not find out what the competitive times for the CX DESO program are currently at. Currently flying the SF3 and was wondering if a person would need PIC time before applying for the SO position. If not, how much right seat time would be competitive? Thanks in advance.

The recruiting people do not let much information out and the flight times and back rounds of hired S/Os are all over the board. Just apply and find out.

Do you research before committing to a job with CX.

FO

A mate of mine down here was just given a start date. He has command time on the C208 and a bit of time on the Do228. Probably around the 2500 hour mark. I have also had friends go there as SO's from the left seat of TP's with around 3000 to 3500 hours.

Good advice from 4everFO mate. . .sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Additionally, you might as well go ahead and apply now for this reason--people have been asked in that interview why they didn't apply to Cx sooner!!! There are a few people out there who wanted to be Cx pilots before they even finished flight training, and having a resume on file and updating it every 6 months is the type of stuff that Cx (and many majors) view favorably.

What do DEFO / DESO mean? If you were to apply as you as nicholasblonde said above, there would be no reason to do it anyway until you met all the minimums right? I can't tell if the 1000 hours is PIC or not. It just said:
So what is it? How do you know if you have an ICAO CPL? I'm flying an RJ right now but its FAA. Can someone elaborate a little bit please.

tyrael37,

I've looked at it a little so far and have come across this:

"In some cases, foreign airlines will not accept a FAA ATP when they require an ICAO ATPL. In other cases they will accept FAA certificates.
There is no actual certificate that says ICAO on it. The ICAO is the FAA, JAA, T.C., CAA and so on agreeing on certain regulations. Your FAA ATP is an ICAO ATPL if you meet the above criteria. You cannot get an ICAO certificate. You cannot buy one. You can meet the requirements agreed upon in the ICAO, and hold (any country that is included in the ICAO) an ATP(L). The US FAA in part of the ICAO. If you have 1500 TT inclusive of only 50% SIC, and have 250 PIC, actual PIC as defined above, then you DO hold an ICAO ATPL. "
----
To the job posting... it doesn't say if the time is PIC or Total time, I think it is flexible.

Thanks for your reply SiouxCFI. So I guess since the SO mins say ICAO CPL, then it means that if you hold a FAA CPL, then go right ahead? :-) Too good to be true unless they are hurting just as bad.

Well as long as you have the 1500 hrs total time and meet all the ATP requirements then you should be good to go.

http://www.gleim.com/aviation/airlin...rt/atpreqs.php

Well, there are the exact details of what an ATP is.

Looks like item c (below) is what I've been hearing about conerning the regional FOs going abroad.

There is no such thing as an ICAO ATPL or CPL....countries are signatories of the ICAO convention. If you have an ATP or CPL from a country that is a signatory of ICAO then you qualify.

Not meeting the minimums may mean that you do not get a call, but it sure as he!! shows interest. Just put in the application already!!

FO

I think it's fair to say that it is harder to get a good expat job (Cathay, Emirates etc.) with a FAA ATP(L) than a JAA/CAA ATPL.

The FAA ATP written is one ridiculously easy multiple choice exam with all the questions and answers published verbatim. In fact with all the prep programs available, you could practically train a monkey to pass the written.

The JAA ATPL written consists of 14 separate exams of which the actual questions are not published.

What if anything can a pilot with a FAA ATP do to offset the stigma associated with this? How should one prepare for the written exams at the interviews considering that some of the subject matter may be familiar to a JAA ATPL holder but not to a FAA ATP holder?

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of FAA ATP guys who have gone through the Cathay interview process.

Thanks.

It's interesting to note that the Chinese ATP test bank, and regs, are almost copied from the US FARs.

If you're worried about the US ATPL, go to Canada and convert. It's a simple written test. They can do the same coming over here...I think 25 questions?

By the time someone has the quals to get hired with Cx or Emirates, I personally don't think there is any difference.

Sure, the Euros have harder writtens, but shooting an approach in a 74 sim and studying the massive gouges out there is the same whether you've got JAA or FAA on your certificate.

Wrong...read the reg further. Unless you have 1200 hrs total time calculated like this:

PIC time + 1/2 your SIC time = 1200 hours

You will have an FAA ATPL, but it will have a restriction saying you don't meet the time reqs of the ICAO

The ICAO restriction is lifted at the FSDO once you meet the above stated numbers

This is one of the main reasons there is confusion about why/whether an FAA ATPL is not "always" considered an ICAO ATPL.

Plus you don't technically have to be typed to fly in US airspace as an FO, while you do per ICAO. The US gets around this by having the "SIC" type rating after some court decision after some flight was held up in Germany since the SIC wasn't "typed" (had only undergone 121 operator training).

Know your sh!t. That always work, no matter what country your license is from.
Seriously, if all your knowledge on trasport category aircraft comes from the FAA ATP databank then yes, you will have trouble getting a job as an expat. But if you are proficient in the material (whether you went to college and took classes on it, or are VERY disciplined in self study) it WILL show.

I have both FAA & JAA ATP, having gone through both several college degree programs in the US and the 14 theoretical JAA ATP exams. I can tell you that no matter where you are, the fundamentals of theoretical knowledge are the same. Sure, some wording might be different, but if you understand the theory you'll be fine.

Now of course if you take a guy who went to a mom & pops FBO, went through PVT, INST, COMM + MULTI, then got picked up by a US regional and once he reaches 1500hrs applies to CX/Emirates/ect....they will obviously be lacking the knowledge to get hired. They were never taught Meteorology, Aerodynamics, Performance, Jet Aircraft Systems, Turbines, ect.... THAT IS WHY U.S. PILOTS AS A WHOLE HAVE A POOR REPUTATION AT FOREIGN CARRIERS (for example Cathay) WHEN IT COMES TO THEORETICAL KNOWLEDGE.

In Europe ALL pilots need to be exposed to the abovementioned material in order to pass the 14 ATPL exams. The curriculum is somewhat thorough on paper, but as all things the reality does not always match the writing on paper. I have seen people pass the 14 exams whom I would not even trust driving me in a car, while some of the most knowledgeable individuals I've met never took any JAA exams.

Bottom line: Bet way to offset the stigma is to excel on the technical interview by showing you truly know your stuff. Not to FAA minimum standards, but to JAA standards at minimum.

If you want to have something on your resume that shows you are theoretically prepared, and do not have an aviation/aerospace degree, you might want to consider taking the 14 JAA ATP exams. You can sit the exams in the US. If you would like more details, PM me.

You can also buy the JAA books from Sporty's or a variety of other sources. Or of course do like palgia says and do the JAA ground online and take the real exams.

Hate to make this jab--but there would be about half as many JAA pilots if it weren't for the US's support of a very active general aviation sector, which wouldn't be as active or widespread if we made all our local yocals go through all that ground training just to fly.

The best training would probably be something b/t the JAA and the FAA--the FAAs emphasis on building a good single-pilot PIC knowledge be darned, with the JAAs more academic technical emphasis (i.e. they don't care as much if you can fly the plane, more about you being able to describe the plane sitting in a chair on the ground).

Good stuff.

I think that it's good that Mom and Pop FBOs exist for GA. However I think that our theoretical knowledge training requirements here in the US should be significantly higher for CPL/ ATP level examinations. That would not affect the private citizen who wants to fly VFR/IFR GA but would assure a more knowledgeable group of professional pilots.

I agree that flight training in the US is generally top notch and often superior to the quality and quantity of flight training received abroad. It's the theoretical minimum training requirements that could be improved. I do know of some flight schools here in the US that teach their own curriculum to a much higher standard than the FAA requires, and not just to the minimum standard to get students through like some of the other schools. FlightSafety Academy is one of those that come to mind. They do a lot of training for foreign airlines although those pilots then return to their home countries to do their conversions.

palgia841, check your PM. Thanks.

Direct quote from a pilot in recruiting at Etihad, "I'm assuming you hold an FAA licence too which is not one of our preferred licences." :mad:

We'll forget the basic grammar mistake for a second.

This attitude demonstrates that what Wolf has said does have some truth to it. Since this particular individual and I hold the exact same ratings in the UAE I thought about challenging him to a contest to see who the more knowledgable pilot is, but figured it would be like tilting at windmills. Guys with prejudices like this can't be swayed. Instead I wrote the FAA with a copy of his entire letter asking them to ramp check all Etihad flights arriving at JFK :D Also thought about writing the DOT to ask them to very carefully review all route requests into the USA by such an obviously prejudiced outfit until such time as they start to hire more Americans with FAA certificates. :p



Typhoonpilot

Amen brother
 

Let all of you JAA pompass as*holes try to get past a Honest to God FAA ramp check and then come back and post how well your "theoretical knowledge" helped you then.

Those who live in glass houses, should not throw stones.

FL

That sends chills down my spine...don't even get me started on Rishworth's contact for Atlas Blue Morocco's 737 FO contract. They basically told me even if I were to convert to Canadian or another ICAO license that they still wouldn't consider me, since they would still know that my original licenses were FAA. It even says "no FAA" on the postings for Atlas Blue on Rishworth's site. Sure, I guess they're mostly into JARs and Euro pilots (esp French-speaking ones) but it's pretty blatant to single out one specific country...why not just say "JAA license required?"

While I'm certainly not a xenophobe or a paranoid national security guy, when I saw their response about "no FAA, no conversion from FAA, no way" it really struck a nerve.

I think there should be a FAA policy that says if a foreign carrier discriminates against FAA licenses (assuming they're hiring non-locals anyways), that carrier should be charged a premium user fee to operate flights into the US. They should also be barred from having any of their pilots trained in the US, which shouldn't be a problem since they look down on our training anyways? Right?

I guess Atlas doesn't operate into the US anyways, but their parent company Royal Air Maroc does. Either way, I guess we're not hiring any Moroccans.