Europe
 

Hello,
So here is my story. I have been born and raised in Poland til my late teens. My family and I moved to the United States about 9 years ago. I have a 4 year aviation degree fro the dreaded ERAU(I know, I know...) I have been flying for a XJT for over a year and I really enjoy the company and the lifestyle but I am really itching to go back to Europe. Since I　am a citizen of EU Ｉ do have the right work anywhere in EU. Obviously I do not have JAA ticket but I am willing to convert it. My times are: 2000 TT, 1000PIC, and Almost 1000 SIC turbine. The question is: If I had a JAA conversion, would I have a shot at working in Europe? Where do I start? I appreciate any relevant input. Thanks

Yes you do. With that type of time you should have a shot to go anywhere you want. Are you looking at a specific company?

From what I see you are an F/O , the JAA conversion is not as tough as doing it from 0 hours but it takes time.

You have two options:
Distance Learning or Full-Time learning.

Distance Learning can be done from your home but most schools require you to go there for a brush up (1-2 weeks) before you give the exams. This might be a little difficult, unless your airline can give you the time off. Distance Learning can be done a soon as 7 months or it can go for a year, it all depends on how much studying you do, and trust me it's a lot.

Full-Time is more structured, should last 6 months. You will be in a classroom for about 600 hours and be done in the quickest time.

THIS IS THE FIRST STEP. After that you will need to convert your CPL/IR (15 hours minimum of flighttime)

Thank you for the prompt response. Ideally I would like to work for LOT Polish Airlines. I was browsing and found an article in a reputable polish newspaper. The article described the process of recruiting and it mentioned that most their pilots have about 300 hrs when they get hired, so I was hopping that my experience plus JAA license would give me an advantage, having said that, I would work anywhere in Europe even the eastern block. When it comes to the conversion, I think that the nature of my job will force me to study on my own. Do you have any schools that you can recommend? I was looking at Naples Air Center. Thanks.

I will try and see if I have any contacts at LOT and get back to you. Don't know if they are hiring.

Yes, most of the EU countries hire with minimum 230 hours. These new hires might start flying "heavies" almost immediately. This is Europe ...

With your experience I am sure you won't have a problem, but for countries such as Poland, Greece etc. you need to look out for the infamous "connections" Not always the best person gets the job just because they know someone in the airline, government, someone very rich, this is the downside with some European countries.

Study on your own is not a bad route, just be ready for a lot of information and details that you will probably never use but you will need to know to pass the exams! :D

I would not recommend NAPLES. The best distance learning program is offered by BRISTOL www.bristol.gs . 98% pass rate. They are based in Bristol, UK.
I would also recommend Oxford Training, www.oxfordaviation.net

Naples or one of the American JAA schools should be your last resort, only then apply there. (This is my opinion)

I'm pretty sure if you go out and get an FAA ATP, and have 500 hrs on type with an SIC type rating, you can actually go through an accelerated conversion process where you basically do a "type validation ride" in a sim with an examiner. It results in a full Euro ATPL.

Look at aviationjobsearch.com for some ERJ jobs...there are tons...although you should be able to get on with LOT directly. Lots of Euro jobs are filled via contract agencies since there are a few different languages and minor differences in work rules among the member states...

You could also easily do Rynair/EasyJet DEFO, but they'll make you pay for your type I think. Pretty sure Ryanair has lots of outstation basings.

Not true.

If you hold 500 hrs multi crew experience on a FAR 25 /23 type, hold a type rating on that type, and will be doing your ATPL skills test on that type you are exempt from the Type rating course and doing any type of training for the ground examinations, you can simply just enter and sit them without any help, then go and do the skills test.

I used to be a flight instructor at the Naples Air Center, prety good school.

As far as getting employment in Europe, keep in mind that it is more challenging getting a job in Europe than in the US. Many people think that if they convert their licenses to European, there will be a job waiting for them in Europe, that's not the case at all. I had a total of 14 European students, some did well, some did not. It took some many years to find a good job, a couple didn't fair too well, they end up at US regionals.

UCLA: How did your European students get jobs at regionals? Was it easy for them to get a green card? I've got a contact with NJE who would like to fly for NJA, but I'm not sure how he will get the work permit.

Olympic: How would a single seat fighter guy with FAA ATP (not having 500 hours multi-crew) convert to JAA ATP? Would I have to self study for all ground exams and then fly a checkride? I've read about first having to take the ground exams and then having a "frozen" ATPL until 500 hours multi-crew. Is this accurate? Thanks!

There are quite a few companies there that will give you waivers from JAA for 6-12 months that are renewable as well,,i know Denmark, Iceland, Ireland and some others do that. Then you could fly in EU for a while make sure you like it before you spend time and money to convert. Kimbro in CPH for one has several us faa pilots.

I think in order to fly in Europe you need to have pass an MCC course. Now as far as military time. It will defenitelly count towards total time but the bottom line is that you defenitelly need to do all the theory, convert your IFR and CPL and that if I am not mistaken will take something like 7-9 months. aweb site with good info about all these is www.JAA.nl. You can do the theory online(self study) pass the exams and I think you make arrangments for your check ride. If i am not mistaken the IFR you have to do the check ride in a country that supports JAA.

The MCC is course is sometimes not needed to get an airline job, airline will do it for you when you go for your type rating. (After being hired)

.. Hello gents, new to the Forum.

Normally if you have a typerating, MCC is not needed anymore.
A very "popular" way to work these days is the Self Sponsored Typerating schemes. It will set you back for around E35000, but it opens some doors.
If you like Poland, WizzAir might be an option. But first you'll have to pay, and after the money is not all that great. Ryanair is actually not too bad.
It is a bit of a raw deal, but money is allright (certainly if UK based) and time to command should be only a few years. Only thing there is that you'll buy yourself a 737 type, whereas a lot of new companies fly the 320.

This is true. I did not need an MCC since I had both an FAA 737 type and a JAA 737 type. Just by chance, I did have the multi-crew hours from my C-130 days. Perhaps the biggest hurdle to get over is the right to work in Europe, if you don't have this right beforehand! Yes, the JAA asspain in conversion is there but can be done. I was fortunate to leave the USAF while stationed overseas, so I developed the contacts for the workpermit prior to leaving the Active Duty AF, it still took me about 6 mos but was successful.

Good luck,
Lifter

Doesn't Wizz pay for your type? And on top of that if you have the right to live and work in Poland dont most of Wizz's pilots stay there?

So here is an email I got from Bristol Groundschool:

Thank you for your e-mail and interest in Bristol Groundschool. Please visit
our web-site for full details on how to convert your current licence and the
requirements. www.bristol.gs I believe you will need to sit and pass all 14
exams at ATPL level but do not have to complete an approved course of
training as you hold a foreign ATPL already.

You may only be required to pass the Air Law & Human Performance exams for
UK registered Aircraft.
This can be confirmed by visiting our web-site under requirements. Any
further licence queries should be e-mailed to Flight Crew Licensing
[email protected] at the UK CAA.

The course can be bought in 2 modules, Module 1 = £1,300 plus shipping,
Module 2 when you're ready = £800 plus shipping. If you require an approved
course up must attend the 2 x 2 week brush-up course's held here at Bristol.
These are included in the £2,100 and our CBT CD rom.

Or you can just buy the DVD which covers all 14 of the subjects for £490, or
if you just want the manuals these can be purchased for £950 plus shipping
if outside the UK.

We do not offer any flight training, you may wish to contact Bristol Flying
Centre www.b-f-c.co.uk for details on these requirements or any of the CAA
approved providers.

If we can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to be intouch.

With kind regards,

Anouska

Since I hold a ATP license already it looks like it makes it a little easier. The biggest problem is the 2 x 2 week class sessions because I have to work while I am doing this course, plus finding lodging must be expensive in England. Also, does anyone know what aircraft are approved for the 15 hour flight requirement? I am hoping that I can do this in GA airplane to keep the cost at minimum. I assume the flight training can be done at any JAA approved flight school. What is the cheapest place (country) to get this done?

I am sorry for all the questions, but I am just trying to do this the right way and before I spend the money I want to make sure that the investment is done the right way. Thanks for all the help and input so far.

Cheapest place = Greece or Spain.
CPL can be done in US
IR has to be done in Europe

So I think that I finally have figured out (thanks to all) what to do. I just one more question. Multi-Crew Coordination Course (MCC) Here is what I have found on the net:
The MCC course is a two week course preparing you to work in a multi crew environment. The courses are normally done in complex simulators and the price often represent the aircraft you wish to do it in (ex. a Beech 200 may be cheaper then a B737). The large schools and many sim-centers offer these courses and the prices vary from 2000 to 5000 pounds.

MCC is the equivalent to LOFT (Line Orientated Flight Training) in USA, but unlike the US an MCC course is a minimum requirement with all airlines in Europe. The one exception to this rule is if you already have over 500 hours total time in a JAR 25 approved multi crew environment. Just be careful here because JAR does not recognize single pilot airplanes flown in a multi crew environment as being multi crew time (this also goes for the SIC time in your logbook). An example of this is a single pilot airplane like the Beech King Air flown with two pilots because of insurance requirements. Under FAA this would be valid SIC time for the copilot – under JAA it is not as the airplane is not considered to require a multi-crew.


I am wondering if my 1000 SIC time in ERJ 145 flown in the United States is JAR 25 approved environment?

Pretty sure that MCC is CRM and not LOFT. Check out JAA.nl It's the JAA official web site. You will find all the answers to your questions there.

Rascal,

I am in the very same boat as you are, even with regards to LOT. As far as I have researched, if you fly a SAAB340 or bigger, it is counted as a JAR25 or 23 aircraft. So from what I understand the ERJ qualifies, but for example a B1900 would not.

With regards to LOT, I recently spoke with a pilot (actually a pilot in training) for LOT who just got hired on the ERJ. He said they are hiring right now people with 3-400 hrs TT for the 145 and the 170. You have to pay for your own TR but it is not an upfront payment. It is deducted from your montly income. I think once you get the JAA license, you would have no problem getting into LOT, especially with your experience on ERJ.

I just got hired, and will (hopefully if I pass training) be flying a Dash-8. I hope when the time comes the Turbo-prop time will not be frowned upon in Europe. I want to build up some multi-crew time so I do not have to do the required groundschool, as well as an MCC course, due to the cost and amount of time needed.

The JAA is such a PITA.

Have you started the JAA process yet?

Zdrowie!

Stoki,

I am just about ready to order the course through Bristol. Since I have an ATP I don't need to go through the "approved course" so I am ordering the stusy material and no class time. I have a person in Poland that knows the ex-president of LOT. I don't know if that helps me much because LO is currently going through a management change. I also looked into Wizz Air and Norwegian. So where did you get hired at?
Pozdrawiam

Rascal,

Yes, I heard the President of LOT just resigned a couple of days ago. Even so I am sure that is a great contact to have, and if anything I am sure that he would be able to get you in touch with somebody who can help, I would imagine anyways.

I got hired at Piedmont, and leave for training tommorow. I looked into Wizzair as well, and it seems they recently have slowed their hiring a bit. Last year I remember on their website it said for F.Os they wanted 1500TT and 300TT if you are from Eastern European origin. But now it seems that the positions filled up, at least for now. As airframes continue to roll in, they will probably continue to hire. I guess by 2012 they are supposed to have something like another 62 A320s? Havent looked into Norwegian too much, but heard they are trying to open a base in PL? Centralwings is hiring as well I heard. Anything based out of Krakow I would love. :)

Is the ATP a requirement to waive the required ground school? Or do you just need the 1500hrs?

Also, I'm not sure of your age and time you spent in Poland. But what about the Military, have you served the required time? If not, how are you planning on going about it?

Hej!

As far I read it looks like you need and ATP license, but that is relatively easy to get if you meet the mins. The only reason why I got my ATP is because of the JAA conversion. I am 26, so I still have two years left till I am exempt from military duty. But I figured that by the time I move there I will be 27 and then I will just keep my USA address for a year. I do know people that can get me out of it if worse comes to worse.
Czesc

That is a pretty good deal. Stick around the forums :D I really would be interested to see how your progressing with this, as I plan to do the exact same thing once I get the hours. Going back to Poland is one thing that I have always wanted to do, and I can't picture my living anywhere else so its something I have been thinking about for a long long time now. I was considering maybe to start studying all those things before I even get the time, so that way I will be ready to take the exams right away, at least some of them.

Poland
 

Hello guys!

I just like to start with saying first time user everyone. Now, let me explain my story.. I am a Norwegian with FAA licenses. My family lives in Poland and I work as a flight instructor in the Middle East at the moment. I used to work in the US, but obviously I don’t hold a US green card or whatever to be able to work in the US. I would love to convert over to the JAA system. Does anyone know of places or as we can call it, schools in Poland that does conversion. And most important of all, in English.. (I have heard it’s hard to find) :confused:

Thanks everyone!

I am really busy right now but in a few days I will PM you the details. Training can be done in english without much of problem.

Give Oxfort Aviation a call.

Oxford Aviation Academy

They take of training from the start to the ATPL as well as distance learning courses for the writtens.

Oxford owns the former SAS training academy in Stockholm. They recently purchased PARC Aviation, a crew leasing/job placement company too. They seem to be a fully integrating aviation training and service providing organization.

I've heard that if you have a certain amount of flight time it's easier to convert an FAA license to JAA. Does anyone have any info on getting a job in Europe with these specifics?

Through an accident of birth I am a dual national and have both a US and a UK passport. Currently flying as an A320 captain for a 121 carrier here in the US flying domestic and international. 10,000 plus TT, 5000 jet, 2000 A320 PIC. Most of my family still in the UK and thinking of returning to Europe. Will a leasing company that specifies JAA certificate required be willing to work with me or is it better to contact these airlines directly?

Thanks,

Merlyn,

Your best bet is to call the UK CAA directly and talk to the Flight Crew Licensing dept.

At least then you'll be getting your info first hand. Whatever you decide to do it won't be cheap.....my JAR Class 1 cost me around 700 sterling the first time.

I think the first paragraph of the copy-paste probably applies to you.

There is somebody on here that has more knowledge than me. But I think if you meet the criteria in the first paragraph, it's two of the JAA written/"theory" exams and a sim check for the validation. But I believe it's pretty restrictive at that point, to lift those restrictions you have a year to complete more of the exams to lift them.


CONVERSION OF YOUR NON-JAA LICENSE
JAR-FCL-1, chapter 1.015, section (c) describes the legislation involved in converting your non-JAA (ICAO) license to JAA license. The conversion process requirements are greately dependant and vary with your pilot experience and license type you hold. The following sections outline the basic conversion requirements for different experience levels and license types:

ICAO ATPL >>> JAA ATPL (experience >3000 hrs on aeroplanes over 30t MTOW, including >1500 PIC hrs on these)
If you hold a non-JAA ATPL license and have 3000 hours on multi-pilot certified aeroplanes (PIC or co-pilot) with maximum takeoff weight of 30.000 kg or more and have at least 1500 hours as PIC (Captain) on these aircraft you qualify for the exemption in the widest scope. Your experience will be evaluated on individual basis and conversion requirements will be setup for you by the Civil Aviation Authority of the state where you intend to do the flying.

ICAO ATPL >>> JAA ATPL (experience >1500 hrs on multi-pilot aeroplanes; including >500 hrs on type)
If you hold a non-JAA ATPL license and have 1500 hours on multi-pilot certified aeroplanes (PIC or co-pilot), including 500 hours on the multi-pilot aeroplane type on which you will be doing your final JAA skill test, the following requirements apply to you. You are not required to undergo a formal structured JAA ATPL groundschool training for your theoretical examinations and you do not need to undergo the Type-Rating/MCC training. - Hold a valid JAR-FCL Class 1 medical
- Obtain a Radio Telephony Operator License
- Pass all 14 JAA ATPL theoretical knowledge examinations
- Pass the ATPL skill test - must be with or observed by a CAA Flight Operations Inspector

ICAO ATPL >>> JAA ATPL (experience >1500 hrs on multi-pilot aeroplanes; including <500 hrs on type)
If you hold a non-JAA ATPL license and have 1500 hours on multi-pilot certified aeroplanes (PIC or co-pilot), but less than 500 hours on the multi-pilot aeroplane type on which you will be doing your final JAA skill test, the following requirements apply to you. You are not required to undergo a formal structured JAA ATPL groundschool training for your theoretical examinations, but you will need to do the Type-Rating/MCC training. - Hold a valid JAR-FCL Class 1 medical
- Obtain a Radio Telephony Operator License
- Pass all 14 JAA ATPL theoretical knowledge examinations
- Undergo and pass Type-Rating/MCC course in approved TRTO (Type Rating Training Organization)
- Pass the ATPL skill test - must be with or observed by a CAA Flight Operations Inspector

One thing I didn't see in the above paragraph is that, if you follow the exemption route, you are only allowed to operate aircraft that are registered in the member state in which you are evaluated.

ie, Do the eval in the UK and you can only fly G registered A/C.

It was just what I heard when I wrote it, but that was why I included this in there;

No worries DoJet, wasn't trying to pick holes in your post..

Cool.....:cool:

Thanks for the info guys! At the moment life is good, ok trips, living in paradise, decent money. But I think I see a train wreck coming and you can never have enough options.