FAA or JAA ATPL?
 

Hello all,

I'm currently active duty in the US Air Force with a retirement date in early 2014. When I retire from the service, I'm considering flying for a foreign carrier(preferably European based but possibly Asian as well) I'm looking at Turkish, Emirates, and several others. My background: C-17 IP 4000+ hours. Here is my question: Which license should I obtain? FAA or JAA ATPL? The reason I ask is because I can get the FAA ATP and possibly a 737 type rating for free using military benefits but then if I did that, would that license be honored by foreign carriers? Or would it just be better to get my JAA ATPL? Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

Getting FAA or JAA ATPL
 

Hello all,

I'm currently active duty in the US Air Force with a retirement date in early 2014. When I retire from the service, I'm considering flying for a foreign carrier(preferably European based but possibly Asian as well) I'm looking at Turkish, Emirates, and several others. My background: C-17 IP 4000+ hours. Here is my question: Which license should I obtain? FAA or JAA ATPL? The reason I ask is because I heard that I can get the FAA ATP and possibly a 737 type rating using the MGIB(BTW, has anybody on here done this?) but then if I did that, would that license be honored by foreign carriers? Or would it just be better to get my JAA ATPL? Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

If you're interested in Asia/Middle East - definitely go with FAA - The JAA is extremely long and expensive. If you're interested in Europe you'll need a JAA

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mi...-training.html

Here's a good thread about the Post 9/11 GI Bill and flight training. I think some are getting ATPs through some commercial schools, but there's a bureaucracy to negotiate. Imagine that!

correct me if i am wrong, but i dont thnk JAA will even help in Europe right now. You still need the "right to live or work" in Europe, aka dual citizenship, a spouse with EU citizenship etc. Back in 06-08 when demand for pilots was strong in the EU, some companies were sponsoring non-EU pilots that had the JAA certs. ymmv

Not only the right to work in the EU (language requirements in some of the countries) but the fact that pilots from the EU are looking for jobs on the expat market because there is nothing there at the moment. We just had several guys from the EU interview here recently.

I have not heard of any flight schools which have GI Bill programs for JAA training. But I also cannot think of any reason why such a program would not be allowed by the VA so keep asking around (google is your friend). I'm not sure there is enough demand to make it worthwhile for a school to certify such a program though

Call these guys, they would probably know if anyone would: Scandinavian Aviation Academy Inc

If you're set on going overseas, the JAA ticket would probably be more flexible. Other than the US, I doubt that anyone who accepts FAA tickets would not also honort JAA. However...

I assume you have done some research on military conversion and FAA vs. JAA? An FAA ATP can be acquired in a matter of days based on your military experience. The JAA ATPL will probably take many months, maybe a year and will be much more expensive. The tests are vastly broader in scope than the FAA written. I'm not even sure JAA will grant you a commercial, you might have to do that training too.

If it came down to a lot of time and money, I'd get the FAA ticket and focus on airlines which will accept that (EK, CX, other asian, etc)

Get your USA ATP and work on your JAA/EASA ATPL.

I believe there are 14 exams to take. It is the equivalent of two years of college.


So if you think you are good? The JAA ATPL will make you better.

What is grivation?
What is the minimum micro tesla units for a magnetic compass to operate properly?
Name the layers of the ionosphere and what altitudes are they found?
What is the maximum compass deviation allowed for a standby compass?
What is an optimum frequency for an HF radio?

I believe I heard some of the Mideast carriers like the JAA ATPL and Cathay Pacific gets a ha*don over it. At least you could do a distance learning course and get through the exams and put it on Curriculum Vitae (JAA speak for a resume).

As someone once told me, “The more you know about a subject the more you realize you didn’t know.”

I just did my 737 and ATP at Crew Pilot in Dallas. You have to pay the 7300 up front but the VA will reimburse you in about six months. A good program and the ability to knock it out all in one shot was well worth it to me even though I am still waiting on the money. It will cost you about ten months of your GI Bill to do this. Good luck on retirment as I hit twenty next week and am looking at the same things.

Thanks to everybody for your insight, advice, tips. It's a huge help to have a network of people like you willing to support a fellow crew dog! I've done research on mil conversion and FAA vs JAA. Very extensive for the latter...just wanted to try and stay in Europe. I'm going with the FAA ATPL and I'll work on my JAA afterward as AIRBUSA320 suggests. I've been recommended Higher Power Aviation out in TX for the ATP/Type rating course. Anybody have any first or second hand knowledge of this school? Thanks again to all of you.

Ledchik,
It is my understanding that EK does not take direct military entrants you will need some airline time first. As for the FAA/JAA thing, go FAA, pretty much everyone outside Europe will take it and then you can work on your JAA as needed.
DF

Those example questions are the perfect indication of why the JAA liscense is such a bunch of BS. When I flew in Europe I flew with FOs who knew the answers to those questions but couldn't fly a visual approach. It's been my experience that Europeans spend waaaay to much time concentrating on the trees and miss the forest entirely. I'll bet the Air France guys knew their sink rate in FPM, MPS and MPH but they didn't know how to save the jet.

A foreign airline can hire you with only an FAA certificate if they want to go the extra mile and have your certificate "validated" by the local authorities. This validation will "liscense" you to fly their aircraft for a limited time. If they don't want to bother, either because they have enough qualified applicants or they just don't want to raise their profile with the local authorities, You will need a JAA liscense.

I'd recommend just getting the FAA ATP and get on with your career.

Higher Power is fine.

JAA writtens are extensive, but more tedious than difficult. I wouldn't classify the academics as college-level; some do have trouble, though.

Right-to-work is important, but not always essential. Turkish is hiring JAA license holders right now, for example. They're not hiring FAA, BTW. Asia and the Pacific take just about any ICAO. Yes, your license is usually validated; however, Japan puts you through a Japanese ATP school and issues you a license. This takes, I am told, about seven months.

Most hired overseas have some airline background, so I'm not sure how you're going to do being 100% military (as noted above). Some time in type will be required (100 to 500, at least), and for a DEC this must be P1 (actual captain time, not just FAA PIC). Of course, if somebody starts a C-17 airline, you'll be set! :)

Getting overseas is a good idea (in 1987 I chose to not make a career with Comair, for example - one of my rare good moves), and a disciplined, steady approach to the JAA writtens will get you through. Having both tickets won't hurt (except your wallet) and might help. You're going to have to get some time in a civilian airliner, though. Get your FAA, get hired somewhere, work on your JAA if you still think you need it... you get the picture.

Also, once you get your FAA ATP you can get a Canadian one as well - just get their medical and take a written or two. It'll do nothing for you without that right-to-work in Canada, but it is easy to get.

Led,

Not sure if you can get a PM yet but i sent you one. i have done the process you are asking about.

Lifter

+1

I recently completed the 14 ATPL exams. Definitely high school level material, but there is a lot of quantity. There were a few FAA ATP holders in my class and two Americans.

Probably the easiest and least costly way to get the JAA ATPL would be to do the 14 ATPL exams via distance learning, (if you hold an ICAO ATPL such as the FAA ATP, you can self certify for the exams and not need to enroll in a course, so you could buy second hand books from Oxford or Bristol and study on your own plus get a membership to one of the question banks).

Then, if you have a type rating on your ATP with at least 500 hours on type, you can take a flight test in the simulator with a JAA examiner observing, and you get the type rating on your JAA license. Plus you need to get an Initial Class 1 through a JAA AMS, not just any JAA AME.

JAA ATPL is a waste of money if you aren't using it. Also, you get the JAA ATPL and you go 7 years without keeping it current, you lose your exam passes. :eek:

Excellent information given here. I took a leave from my airline in the US and recently finished as a freelance candidate for the JAA written tests. Took me a year to complete and to give you an idea, without working and doing it at an easy pace.

You've got 3 years to do the IR part of the practical test to keep the written current.

Also, as a note on the material to study. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND (I cannot stress enough this part) you buy the OAA Media CBT's. That's what I did and honestly it is MUCH easier than books to retain the vast amount of material involved. The software is excellent, has practice questions found on the exams and is of high quality. A no brainer really. All you'll need when ready to take the test is a subscription to Bristol's question bank and you'll be set.

I always wanted to come back to Europe to fly (as I'm French) and finally came to realize jobs are very rare here in Europe. But hey, better have the JAA written and never use it than spend your whole life thinking you passed up a great opportunity...

Good luck and don't hesitate to PM for more info!

Cheers!

Lifter where in the world are you bro??

I got my FAA tickets first then converted to JAA .. instead of joining a ****ty US regional I did the full time JAA course and then got hired in EU.

Where did you get hired if I may ask? Did you pay for your type or were you already certified?

Cheers!

Free type rating...
check your pm's.

Howdy Olympic--long time no see
 

I'm on trip now. We have a 4 month Alitalia contract? What ab you?

Lifter

Still at the same gig .. flying the bus now though. stay in touch.

Olympic
 

Will do. I miss the beaches up North of the airport. We had a good gig there for awhile. Fly safe.

Lifter

Ahh yes, the beach front hotels ... always enjoyable here regarding weather, and scenery. chat soon

Actually the JAA is desired by more air carriers and is not that expensive. There's a school in Maldives that will get you from Zero to ATPL for less than US$ 50,000.

I do ATP licenses in Seattle area for $1999 (less than ATP inca rate) and I have a pretty fair examiner.

I also have a jaa atpl program. Not to violate the forum rules I would like you to personal message me so that I am for you details.

Those in Asia that are interested in hiring contract pilots usually take FAA/ICAO with no problems. What they desire / require for their "cadets" I don't know. Perusing the current want-ads shows most that are hiring taking both. All of the Indian carriers were, too, although expat hiring there is now at a standstill.

I'll be glad to bring you from "zero to ATP" for 50K. You'll have to pay me in advance. After all, it's not that expensive. :D:eek::rolleyes:

That include all time-building? ATP MEL or SEL? How much if I already have a private?

$50,000.00 - I have to verify your knowledge. This includes the "100% in advance discount".:D

MEL, SEL, what's the difference? 50K isn't that much, anyway, according to a previous poster. :)

Be careful... Some schools advertise JAA training, but if the country is not a signatory of the JAA or the school is not an approved FTO via an Authority of a JAA signatory, it is perhaps "JAA compliant" but not a license recognized in Europe as a JAA license.

Some non-JAA countries are starting to copy the JARs, but they are not signatories. If you don't plan on using the license in Europe, then it is probably a moot point though.

If you were to go with JAA, where and how do you actually take the test. (those 14 that were mentioned earlier in this thread). Are there US flight schools that are authorized to give them?

There is another thing to consider which is that the JAA license expires, as opposed to the FAA certificate which doesn't, going the JAA route means that there will be a trip every year (and the expenditure associated with it) to a JAA training facility to renew your license.

Each JAA country has their own tests. The UK CAA has several testing centers, one of them is in Florida (which is actually just in a conference room at a hotel in Orlando each month.

If you hold any ICAO ATPL, then you don't have to be enrolled in an ATPL theory course to take the exams, aka you can self certify. If you don't hold an ATPL, (you must hold at least a PPL to take the JAA ATPL exams), you must be enrolled in an approved course and have a minimum level of attendance. If you do distance learning, you must finish the whole course and then sit at least 10% of the required hours in residence.

For more info on UK approved testing centers overseas, CAA International Ltd

If you want to see all the schools approved by the UK CAA, look here:
Standards Document 31 Version 107: Organisations Conducting CAA and JAR-FCL Approved Courses of Flight and Ground Training - Interim Document | Publications | About the CAA

There are different providers but many of the schools in the US providing ATPL theory training use someone else's materials under a license agreement, typically through distance learning.

Yes, they do expire, but you don't have to renew it every year. I
You can go up to 7 years without renewing your license before it expires. Beyond that, it expires and you have to go through extra heartache and expense to get it back. So if you are flying on your FAA license, just go once every seven years to renew the JAA license in case you want to keep it valid for the future. Having said that, it is WAAAY more expensive to keep a JAA license current than an FAA license.

Thank you for the correction, I was under the impression that it was a yearly thing from the guys here that always seem to be organizing trips to the EU to renew it. Pain in the rear end though, I personnaly don't think is worth it, unless you are planning to work in the EU market eventually (people are bailing out of that market in droves it seems) But hey, if you have 50K around that you can't possibly think of nothing better to do with it, go for it:rolleyes:

Are they flying on a validation? If so, their license has to stay current, unfortunately. That means a yearly renewal. As for FAA, I do need to keep my "BFR" current; the foreign sim checks don't count. :)

Great info, just what I needed Thanks Zonda!