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January 4, 2014 - On the ramp at Apron 7, Kabul, Afghanistan



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Cabin Crew

Why is the pay such a secret? From your cryptic analogy, that could be $3500/month. Ten times that and I still wouldn't go back to that godforsaken place.

So the price doesn't really matter to you then, correct? It's not a secret for anybody who sends a resume and passes a basic screening. That's it. I have low patience for the salary "crazy talk" on here, so I'm not going to participate.

Ok... Well good luck out there! Seriously, I wish you the best and hope you find some good crews. Stay safe.

Thank you! This type of expat work / flying is hard enough without the nipping at your heals.

The good news is that I don't think I'll have any problem making the required crews. I'd be more worried with "narrow body" airplanes, since pilots are really getting competive out there.

I'd like to see us migrating to the C-Series in the medium term, that can hit London and Hong Kong from Kabul, at significantly lower acquisition and fuel burn cost over a B737NG.

I met a couple of guys at CAE in Toronto last November that were working this place... Maybe that was you!?!

Why not just say what the pay is? Why is it a big secret? Just because it's a lot more than flying at a US regional doesn't mean it's a good deal.

I'm not putting a price on what it would take me to do it... I would have to know what the package is before I could assess that.

This will be my last comment on pay concerning these positions.

If you are interested, submit a simple resume to the email in the first post. If you're not interested, don't do anything.

Should we find that your particular qualifications merit a job offer, that job offer will be in the form of an employment contract that will include the pay offered. It is then YOUR SOLE DISCRETION to sign or not sign the contract.

Nobody here is asking you to sign up for any job without knowing the pay. If you have needs beyond this very simple exchange, you might not be a good fit for our airline. If this doesn't make sense to you, again, you might not be a good fit for our airline.

Thank you all. I'm happy to answer questions about any other particulars, except security issues and pay.

There were four pilots to start. Two went to Toronto (CAE) for sim, and two went to Minneapolis (PanAm). One of those was sacked in January, and we're still cleaning up the mess he left. The other is the current DFO.

Myself and one other went to MSP. The other pilot went home in January and just never returned. At least he didn't leave a wake of carnage behind him.

So, no, that wasn't me!

So this about says it all about this employment opportunity. I fly the region a lot. Why would you even consider employing RJ First Officers from the States? Of course they will bail, and some of them, feeling that you betrayed them, will not be kind when they leave. Tony, you have forgotten what a shock it was to the system the first time you showed up for a flight in Africa. You started your expat career when things were bad here in the US and you didn't have the opportunity to go back as readily as pilots do today. Things are not so bad anymore in the US. I think you would be much better off financially, to pay high dollars to experienced Afgan flyers who know what they are getting into, and are only doing it for the money. Your training and reliability factor would be much better and less expensive in the long run. Pilots coming to your operation to "see the world" will not like what they see and will soon leave. If you are interested in an experienced(it has been 6 years since I have flown the 2/7/9) CL65 pilot with Afgan experience and are willing to pay me $175,000.00 or more a year with a good health care policy then send me a PM. If not, then I think you are wasting your time and are doomed to failure. Just my opinion. Good luck to you.

Will you be living in the compound with the boys too? Or safe in Dubai?

This what I don't get... I am making that living in Hong Kong... Why would I go to Afghan for the same or less?

Oh yeah... and I bet I'm flying a lot less than I would be there! 75hrs last year.:D:eek:

I will be at both, just like other crew members. In addition, there will likely be hotel stay in Kabul.

This is similar to what is done at Arik Air, however the pilot compound was not complete until after I left.

I believe that your assumption was that the one guy who didn't return was because he was betrayed in some way, and I'm somehow responsible for that? Interesting. The fact is that he is the guy who recruited me. I guess that throws a monkey wrench in your conspiracy theory?

By the way, 3 out of 4 of the original pilots were former Arik Air, just like me. All four of us are experienced expat CRJ pilots, and the two who are no longer with us both have extensive previous Afghan flying experience in the Airbus. All four of us are from North America.

So, in a nut shell, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.



Yes, that is one opinion. Maybe you're the only person who can save this company from the perilous end that awaits us.

Or, maybe not.

We actually have all the applicants we need for now. Thanks to all who responded.

I'm interested in a position like this, but in the future. As of right now I don't have the hours for it, or the type.

Any recommendations for obtaining training ahead of time for a flying environment like that?

You said 1000 hours in type, so really I'd have to fly for an airline like Air Wisconsin for a year or so to get the time in a CRJ, correct? Would a fresh flight instructor with 1500 hours and a CRJ type even be looked at?

I understand the risk of this job and why that would turn many off, but I know a lot of pilots that are struggling pretty hard with $50-100k of training debt. A position similar to this one could easily get them out of debt in one year. Fly two and set yourself up for some comfort savings to handle the Regional lifestyle and pay for a few years.

Intriguing it is.

Being in debt is better than being dead.......

Of course, however, some are risk takers, thrillseekers, adventurers, etc.. It's definitely not for everyone.

While I don't have much experience, I am willing to work this job, as dangerous as it may be. I just want to be better trained before I venture onto something like this.

That would make the pay between 1900 to 8000. Lot more than regional would be maybe 4000 a month and lot less that Emirates would be 5000????

Well thats not a whole lot of money to put your life on line.

But you never know if you will live to see the sun next day in that place!!

Seriously, unless you spoke the local language, or had previous expat flying experience in "challenging places", or some other thing of value, a zero time inexperienced pilot is not what we need or want.

Sorry to be blunt.

I figured as much. I know I'm not qualified. I just don't know how to get qualified for it, or what route I should take.

[QUOTE=Aviator89;1598702]Perhaps you should thank a veteran today for going to "prison" to keep us safe and free.

What is your policy regarding training failures?

What rights do the employees have under the contract of which you spoke?







.

I hope everyone who buys into the "pilot shortage" myth reads through this thread...

I never waste my time if terms and conditions are not revealed in writing.

How much does it pay?

That whole operation sounds like very thin ice.

We just had our first "post holder" meeting as part of the AOC process with four of us and the Afghan government Civil Aviation Authority, plus the FAA. All four us are USMC veterans, including myself.

Prison is someplace you can't leave. I can leave any time.

I'm not the person to be able to address an employee's legal rights here. I would think of it much like SkyWest Airlines with their "Right to Work" state of Utah, which really means you can be sacked at any time for whatever failing you may have. The U.A.E. has no legal labor unions, but I don't know about Afghanistan.

A training failure would not be retained. We are not in a position to baby sit pilots, which is why they must be experienced in this aircraft.

The exception is Afghan nationals, or those who speak the local language, who will be trained under a somewhat costly program (but common in this part of the world) of a training captain (TRI) plus a safety captain in the jump seat during IOE. All the Afghan speakers we currently have completed a full JAA / EASA approved initial course in Europe, but have zero time in a CRJ.

We just repositioned the first aircraft to Kabul from Dubai. This is the equinox and first day of the Persian New Year (1393), and our company teams have been busy setting up sales and ticket offices, airport offices (both in domestic and international terminal at Kabul), building maintenance facilities, and hiring.

It is exciting watching something rise from the dust.

Yes, we could fail, just like this long list of airlines (and only partially through the first letter "C"):

Defunct Airlines

Adamair
Country: Indonesia
Airline operations were stopped in 2008 due to the safety problems

ADC Airlines
Country: Nigeria
Airline was grounded by the Nigerian government in April 2007

Aero Airlines
Country: Estonia
Airline ceased operations in January 2008

Aero Asia International
Country: Pakistan
Airline failed to meet safety standards and suspended operations in May 2007

Aero California
Country: Mexico
Mexican government grounded the airline in July 2009

Aero Rent Airlines
Country: Russia
Charter airline grounded by authorities in November 2011

Aerocondor Transportes Aereos - ATA
Country: Portugal
Regional airline suspended operations in May 2008

Aerolineas del Sur
Country: Chile
Airline declared bankruptcy in December, 2008

Aeromost Kharkiv
Country: Ukraine
Airline went into bankrupt in 2007

AeroSvit
Country: Ukraine
Formerly the largest airline in Ukraine ceased operations in February 2013

African Safari Airways
Country: Kenya
Charter airline ceased operations in 2009

Air Adriatic
Country: Croatia
Charter airline lost its air operator certificate and suspended operations in March 2007

Air Batumi
Country: Georgia
Airline based in Batumi closed in 2012

Air Comet
Country: Spain
Scheduled long-haul airline went into bankrupt in December 2009

Air Europe
Country: Italy
Long-haul scheduled airline was closed by owners in December 2008

Air Finland
Country: Finland
Charter airline went bankrupt in June 2012

Air Gabon
Country: Gabon
Former national carrier of Gabon ceased all operations in March 2006

Air Guinee Express
Country: Guinea
Only airline in Guinea was liquidated in 2008

Air Ivoire
Country: Cote d'Ivoire
Former national airline of Ivory Coast liquidated in 2011

Air Lithuania
Country: Lithuania
Regional airline went into bankrupt in November 2005

Air Madrid
Country: Spain
Airline suspended operations in December 2006.

Air Mauritanie
Country: Mauritania
Former national airline of Mauritania was liquidated in October 2007

Air Midwest
Country: United States
Commuter airline ceased operations in June 2008

Air Nepal International
Country: Nepal
Airline ceased operations in March 2006

Air Onix
Country: Ukraine
Airline from South Ukraine ceased operations in December 2013

Air Phoenix
Country: Thailand
Regional airline ceased operations in 2009

Air Rum
Country: Jordan
Intrernational charter airline became inoperational in 2008

Air Santo Domingo
Country: Dominican Republic
Former flag carrier of the Dominican Republic, merged with Servicios Aereos Profesionales in 2005

Air Scotland
Country: United Kingdom
Operating Licence of the airline was suspended by Civil Aviation Authority in December 2006

Air Senegal International
Country: Senegal
Former flag carrier of Senegal suspended operations in April 2009

Air Southwest
Country: United Kingdom
Regional airline ceased operations in September 2011

Air Vallee
Country: Italy
Regional airline ceased operations in November 2009

Air Volga
Country: Russia
Reginal airline ceased operations in April 2010

Air Wales
Country: United Kingdom
Regional airline ceased all operations in April 2006

Airlinair
Country: France
French regional airline joined the company HOP! in 2013

Airlink
Country: Papua New Guinea
Regional domestic airline in Papua New Guinea ceased operations in 2007

AirTran Airways
Country: United States
Budget airline merged with Southwest and ceased own operations in 2011

AiRUnion
Country: Russia
Russian airline alliance was liquidated in August 2008

Ajet
Country: Cyprus
Ajet, formerly Helios Airways, ceased flights in November 2006

Al Khayala
Country: Saudi Arabia
Premium-class airline declared bankruptcy in April 2009

Alaniya Airlines
Country: Russia
Airline Operating Licence was revoked in December 2009

Albanian Airlines
Country: Albania
Albania’s Civil Aviation Authority revoked the license of the airline in November 2011

Alma de Mexico
Country: Mexico
Mexican domestic budget airline ceased operations in November 2008

Aloha Airlines
Country: United States
Honolulu-based airline went into the bankrupt in March 2008

Alpi Eagles
Country: Italy
Operating Licence of airline was suspended by the Italian authorities in December 2007

Alwafeer Air
Country: Saudi Arabia
Charter airline ended operations in 2011

Amber Air
Country: Lithuania
Palanga based regional airline suspended operations in October 2007

America West Airlines
Country: United States
Airline merged into US Airways in 2005

Amur Airlines
Country: Russia
Operations were stopped by Aviation Authority in 2010

Armavia
Country: Armenia
Former national carrier of Armenia ceased operations in 2013

ARP 410
Country: Ukraine
Former charter operator went out of airline business in 2007

Asia Wings
Country: Kazakhstan
Regional airline closed in 2012

ATA Airlines
Country: United States
Charter airline went into bankrupt in April, 2008

Atlant Soyuz
Country: Russia
Moscow-based airlines ceased operations in Jahnuary 2011

Atlantis European Airways
Country: Armenia
Airline ceased flights in 2012

Atyrau Aue Zholy
Country: Kazakhstan
Charter airline ceased operations in 2009

Australian Airlines
Country: Australia
Subsidiary of Qantas Airways closed down in August 2007

Aviaenergo
Country: Russia
Charter airline ceased operations in 2011

Avianova
Country: Russia
Russian low cost carrier ceased operations in October 2011

Aviaprad
Country: Russia
Airline ceased operations in February 2008

Avolar
Country: Mexico
Mexican domestic low-cost airline ceased operations in October 2008

Bahrain Air
Country: Bahrain
Airline ceasid operations due to political reasons in February 2013

Batavia Air
Country: Indonesia
Indonesian domestic airline went bankrupt in Jahnuary 2013

Best Air
Country: Bangladesh
Operations of the airline were suspended by Civil Aviation Authority of Bangladesh in 2009

Blue Wings
Country: Germany
Charter airline went into bankrupt in January 2010

BMED
Country: United Kingdom
Airline Operating Licence was revoked in January 2008

Bmi
Country: United Kingdom
Airline merged with British Airways in May 2012

Bmibaby
Country: United Kingdom
Low-cost airline closed by owners in September 2012

Bratsk Air Enterprise
Country: Russia
Former regional airline in Eastern Siberia ceased operations in 2007

Brit Air
Country: France
French regional airline joined the company HOP! in 2013

BWIA West Indies Airways
Country: Trinidad and Tobago
National airline of Trinidad and Tobago was liquidated in 2006 and replaced by Caribbean Airlines

Caribair
Country: Dominican Republic
Regional airline grounded by authorities in Jahnuary 2009 over safety concerns

Caribbean Star Airlines
Country: Antigua and Barbuda
Regional airline merged with LIAT in June 2007

Caribbean Sun Airlines
Country: United States
Operations were ceased in Jahnury 2007, airline was sold in 2009 and renamed to World Atlantic Airlines

Centralwings
Country: Poland
Formerly budget airline was liquidated in March 2009

Centre-Avia Airlines
Country: Russia
Airline Operating Licence was revoked in September 2009

Champion Air
Country: United States
Charter airline went into bankrupt in 2008

Cimber Sterling
Country: Denmark
Regional low-cost airline filed for bankruptcy in April 2012

Cirrus Airlines
Country: Germany
Regional airline ceased operations in Jahnuary 2012

City Airline
Country: Sweden
Regional airline filed for bankruptcy in May 2012

City Star Airlines
Country: United Kingdom
Regional airline ceased all operations in Jahnuary 2008

Clickair
Country: Spain
Spanish budget carrier was merged into Vueling Airlines in July 2009

Coast Air
Country: Norway
Regional airline went into bankrupt in Jahnuary 2008

Continent
Country: Russia
Schedule domestic airline ceased operations in July 2011

Continental Airlines
Country: United States
One of the oldest airlines in the U.S. merged with United in 2010

Based on your reading comprehension skills, too much for you.

For those thinking about being adventurous and "seeing the world":

Official: 9 civilians die in attack on Kabul luxury hotel - CNN.com

It's not a game and not for the faint of heart. Thanks for pointing that out. More specific to this job, last year, Safi Airlines had an entire crew murdered in the crew bus right in Kabul.

Earlier this month, gunmen shot and killed a Swedish journalist in broad daylight. In January, a bomb and gun attack by the Taliban on a restaurant in Kabul killed 21 people, most of them foreigners.

10 June 2013, a group of Taliban attacked at the Kabul airport and were killed by Afghan military.

18 September 2012, KABUL — Twelve people were killed near Kabul’s airport when a suicide car bomber rammed into a minivan carrying foreign air-charter workers, Afghan officials said. A Pakistan-based militant group said it carried out the attack to avenge a YouTube video that defames the Muslim prophet Muhammad.

On 24 November 2010 an EU ban barring all Afghan carriers from flying into Europe was put in place.

You wouldn't, so why even bother to post. Besides, YOU should be able to deduce that the pay is nowhere near 175k.

I was trying to point out to the guys looking at Afghanistan that just because it's 1.5 or 2 times what they make at a regional it's still substandard for an expat pilot.

All they're doing is bringing the US mindset to the expat world.

Why are you limiting this to only CRJ-200 rated with time individuals? I've been flying in Afghanistan for the past 6 years and I think getting guys with no military background or experience flying in that AOR a foolish thing. Don't believe me, talk to L3 which only hired BE-300 typed guys at first (corporate pilots with no knowledge but excited about the pay) and quickly changed gears and now they are doing great because they hired first and foremost experienced people and provide the type training.

You really want to target people who have been flying in that AOR and/or have been in the military dealing with those types of living conditions.

I can also tell you that things will get extremely sketchy once the US/coalition pulls out at the end of the year, watch all the local Afghans who are fleeing right now as they know the Taliban will re-claim the region. Kandahar already looks like a ghost town compared to last year.

I would caution anyone in the states with CRJ-200 experience, with little to no military/combat time that the money is not worth it if you have no idea what you are getting yourself into.

Since you're not willing to state pay, I will say this. You can get a job flying for Dynamic/L3/Avenge/Blackwater, etc for around 15-20k per month and you live in a military base.

Just read this entire thread..so funny.

Tony Williams, never had anything against you man, but you do yourself a disservice to try and dress Afghanistan up as anything but what it is, very dangerous. The term "don't BS and BS'er" comes to mind. You may be new to Afghanistan living/ Flying but there are many of us on here who have lived and worked over there doing contract/military work. Notice what the common theme is amongst all those with experience is? Yeah, astounding "NOs!"

I used to work with a lot of people over in Afghanistan that looked at it as an exciting "summer camp," until their first up close rocket attack. Attitudes changed.

Also, I noticed those photos you took were in winter. Winter seems so peaceful over there, doesn't it? Wait until the fighting season and spring offensive starts up again. For those who have applied, these are terms you should know about before taking this job.

Contractor compounds are very dangerous in Kabul and are always getting hit. Before I came back from my final trip, Green Village was hit by suicide bombers. You think that is going to get better as US Troops pull out?

Tony Williams just last page listed multiple attacks in Kabul, I don't think he's sugar coating anything.

Not for everyone but could be a good opportunity for the right person.

Yes, I'm new to Afghanistan, but not dangerous areas of the world, including Baghdad.

I always love the attitude of "my danger is so much more real / special / scary, etc than "your" danger".

My ass is currently in Kabul, and I physically heard the gunshots from the punks who shot up the Serena Hotel the other night. I sure as hell never sugar coated this ****.

Spare me your speech and your "BS".


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Shopping, Camp Victory, Iraq

Gotta love it when you're in a place dangerous enough to have to sling your M-4, yet the USAF makes you wear highly conspicuous/reflective PT gear.

Actually, it's an M16A2, not an M4. The US requires all servicemen in theater to keep their weapons and one loaded magazine with them at all times.

So about 90-100k to risk being blown up on the way to work and live in a hostile country???? I can't believe you would compare Detroit to Afghanistan-as a Detroit based pilot i think ur crazy.

I will pass!