webecheck

So what should the collective union opinion be towards the companies, and their employees, who make the NAI/ME3 threat truly a threat via codeshare? Aside from a few a routes that terminate at specific destinations, there isn't much of a threat without having an LCC/ULCC connecting those pax to/from their final US destination.

Furthermore, I'm shocked at the lack of discussion on the JetBlue GAO scam so do people really care about this? If so, we are about to have a huge problem within ALPA.

gettinbumped

Yawn. You were (or are) a Ryanair pilot, correct? Perhaps you see this as your ticket to come back to the States and therefore want to ensure that you have a soft landing. Please don't preach to me about "product" when you worked for a guy who would love to have passengers standing up and using pay toilets. Sure you can get the masses in the door by charging $9 for a seat and then nickeling them for everything but the air they breath while and funding it on the backs of your crew. But don't suggest that the US Airlines offer an inferior product to THAT. The big 3 have been investing BILLIONS in airplane, product, and service improvements. I've flown on Norwegian. Don't pretend it's some nirvana of value for the customer. Same here in the USA. I've flown Spirit, and when you add up the extras for bags and a seat that won't break my back the charge is the same as any other airline. The experience again isn't anything to hold up as a gold standard.

What this is about is a fair playing field. If Norwegian wants to fly to the US, AWESOME! But they should do it with crews operating under Norwegian law. I'm appalled that Obama allowed this labor busting move, and I'm a staunch Democrat. I'm sorry you weren't able to land your dream job in the US (as you stated in another post), but don't expect the rest of us to accept you warmly in your new Norwegian uniform should you choose to go fly there. I would definitely move to the Stewart area. I grew up there. It's lovely. But Jumpseats are going to be hard to find, official ban or not.

Eaglepilot84

It seems that it's just us pilots who are up in arms over this decision to allow NAI and not our respective airlines management team. Doesn't this concern anyone?

Bottom line is that this is going to happen at some point in the forceeable future. The strategy that needs to be taken is to adapt and overcome. Face it, US airlines charge more and provide a vastly inferior product then any other foreign airline. Rather then investing in their product to try and compete, they're buying back billions of dollars in stock. Why?

I hope NAI is stopped but I don't see that as a reality. Just as southwest, JetBlue, and spirit couldn't be stopped. It is going to force changes that if done properly, will allow the legacies to compete with the flag of convenience carriers and not affect our qol or pay. However, that requires serious investment in the product, of which I have yet to see.

captjns

Intreresting how the little gnome at FR was chastised by those in the industry... with charging for pre-boarding, food on board, checked bags. While, I don't condone MOL's disdain for his employees, I wish the FR direct employees took a stronger stance against MOL as pay, benefits, and T&C were eroded.

Oh... remind me... aren't DAL, AA, and UAL following the FR model? Even UAL has gon a step further towards the FR model with their "basic fare"... last to board, no assigned seating, one carry on, and it better fit under the seat, $$$$.

Anyway, for me... FR was a 4 1/2 year vacation around Euroland. 5 days on five days off. I did vow however, I'd never work for a carrier that did not have at least a business class section.

Yeah, the majority of expats need the $$$. The minority can pick and choose the locations where to live and fly for a few years, then move on to the next adventure with a trade off for salary.

Yeah, NAI ofers a soft landing spot for U.S. Citizens who made a life in Europe and other countries. NAI offers a free ride back across the Atlantic. It's also a good opportunity for those who want to live in base too. Contracts are negotiable. If they don't want to put up the $$$$ for the bond, then they wont fly for NAI... simple. If NAI is hard up for U.S. based pilots,then they'll waive the training bond.

In the early 2000's many "Legacy Pilots" took early retirement to preserve their accrued benefits before the airlines terminated their retirement plans. They weren't ready to hang up the goggles and went overseas.

Would be interested to know your situation, seniority, length of service. Have you experienced, furloughs, mergers, seat realignments because of seniority list integration. Did you lose your retirement benefits?

Grumble

Lot of lecture from a guy that is willing to pay for his own recurrent training, on half the pay.

NEDude

Great strategy: punish the pilots by denying them something they do not have anyway.

"Even though you can't ride in the jumpseat, we are going to ban you from the jumpseat as punishment. TAKE THAT!"

And you want to be taken seriously...

Smutter

Did you want to be first on the list

webecheck

How would you go about getting your point across to fellow Americans who think employment within a foreign carrier's flag of convenience scheme, that could potentially decimate the US int'l aviation market, is a poor choice to make?

This is an easy problem to identify. History shows schemes like this are detrimental to US jobs. If you're a foreigner, you probably have no allegiance to this country. If you are a US citizen, where do your priorities lie? Employment within the US at any cost, or preserving the quality of life garnered from American jobs here?

I'm not attacking you, but these are very simple questions to answer and thus highlight your true feelings on the issue. 9easy may not have all the answers, but its clear he/she cares about American jobs and loyalty to his countrymen. NAI isn't going to create new jobs, its going to shift the jobs from one employer to another.

To be an American and argue in defense of employment with NAI is a clear testament to your belief that employment within the US at a reputable carrier will not happen for you, and thus you care more about your own personal quality of life regardless of any impact your decision may have on your peers and countrymen.

What's really funny is the number of expats now wanting employment from a legacy so they can leave their ME3 employer. Oh the irony.

NEDude

Your strategy for getting your point across would be better served by doing something that might actually affect them. NAI pilots will not have any access to the jumpseat anyway. NAI is a foreign airline and obviously will not be part of CASS. So the strategy of denying them jumpseats is just a silly waste of time. It is almost as silly as telling you that in order to punish you, I am not going to let you ride on the next Space Shuttle flight.

That is the point I was making.

The argument that a certain carrier will drag down the profession has been going on since the dawn of the de-regulation. Even before in fact. Southwest was the coming of the anti-Christ at one point. So was PeoplExpress. America West, Frontier (the second version), Vanguard, new Midway, JetBlue, and Virgin America all were public enemy number 1 at one point in time as well. Virtually every regional airline had its turn at being the worst place on earth for the profession. It just gets tiring hearing all of the sky is falling predictions.

Vilifying certain groups has gotten tiring as well because we all know that at some point the villains will be part of the "in group". Even the former CAL scabs have been welcomed back into the ALPA fold. Does anyone even care about pilots who flew for PeoplExpress? How about the guys who went to Freedom Air 15 years ago? Not even a decade ago ALPA was fighting vigorously against Virgin America and message boards proclaimed the Virgin pilots as bottom feeders. Now ALPA proudly counts the pilots of Virgin America as its members, happily cashing their dues checks each month.

If a guy wants to go to Norwegian then so what? In ten years no one will bat an eye at Norwegian and some other airline will be the new boogeyman who will destroy everyone's career, probably Virgin America #2 now that the VX-AK merger has been approved. It has been going on for over 40 years now.

As to one other point - You are correct that a career at a "reputable" US carrier will most definitely not happen for me. I am a dual US and EU citizen and happily reside on the eastern side of the Atlantic. I already have a nice job with a small European charter airline and I am quite content to stay right where I am. But I have seen the effect that Norwegian has had on my salary because my pay and work schedule has improved in order to try and stem the tide of pilots going to Norwegian. So I am quite happy to see Norwegian hiring. If regional guys and and guys who fly carriers like Amerijet and Miami Air start applying to Norwegian, they might see some pay increases as well. We all focus on the possibility of it dragging down the top, but there is also a good chance of it raise the bottom as well.

webecheck

NEDude,

We already discussed that CASS access won't happen so no need to discuss anymore. My question more specifically though, was what you would do to get your point across. I think a lifetime ban from joining an ALPA carrier will make an impact. If NAI never materializes to be a threat, then those who go will spend their career with subpar wages. When you look at the new legacy pay scales and work rules, every pilot on the planet wants to be a part of that.

You listed several US carriers that helped transform the market. Jobs shifted from one employer to another, but they remained in US. The issue here is that these jobs will now leave the US and go overseas. That's the BIG difference!

Full disclosure for the board....Do you have an app in with NAI, have you already been hired, or is it that you plan to apply soon?