B727DRVR

Dude, you are hilarious!!

Here we are with the age old topic of how fighter pilots are better than bomber/transport/ helicopter pilots, etc. and essentially everyone else. True story: I was working on my MEI at a flight school where military pilots came to get their ATP's and pretty much head off the the airlines. We did ride alongs with the permission of the other student, and I rode along any time I could, not just on the Multi-engine training flights.

On several occasions, these fighter guys from an unnamed branch were telling my instructor how the flight was going to be conducted, and what they did and did not need to do! I was absolutely dumbfounded with their hubris... So during the ride alongs, I saw that the little Beechcraft Duchess was literally EATING these guys alive, and it took that humbling experience to actually convince them that they should just shut up and listen to this soft spoken civilian. The instructors actually competed for these types because they usually ended up taking more time to complete their ATP and the instructors all wanted the ME time and the money. I know that its bad to generalize, but stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason: It wasn't that these guys weren't awesome at what they did, but transitioning to a piston twin with no HUD or RMI proved to be a challenge for them.. But I found the root cause of their extended training times to be their arrogance. The truth is that these were all good pilots that served their Country, and we all looked up to them. But for God sakes, have the humility and respect to at least act like you can learn something from someone trying to help you. Better to keep your mouth shut and impress than to over promise and under deliver.

Which leads up to the best student I ever had and my first multi engine student... I was a fresh MEI, and just found out that my first student was going to be the Commander of all the Air Force's rotor wing training in Ft. Rucker. He had 10 combat rescues in Vietnam on the Jolly Green Giant, flew OV-10's, F16's, etc. Aside from my Dad, THIS is the man I wanted to be. And I thought to myself, why in the HELL did they give this guy to ME and what can I possibly teach HIM??? Well, it turns out that we taught each other quite alot. While he was an imposing 6'4", he was one of the most thoughtful, humble, and respectful pilots that I ever met.. Of course he was confident, but also was open to learn from others. The Duchess didn't didn't have an RMI, just a fixed card, and he couldn't fly an NDB if his life depended on it.. So I said that we should save him some money and practice instrument stuff in the C172 vs. the expensive twin. This saved him quite a bit, and he went on to get his ATP and then on to UAL.

Part of the reason why civilian operators value multi-crew aircraft experience over single pilot experience goes back to the late 1970's and the advent of cockpit resource management. Many documented accidents, and their CVR recordings, indicated that often instead of working as a crew, there were 3 pilots flying in loose formation in the cockpit. While some of the best pilots I ever met flew single pilot Metroliners, with no autopilot, in the shiznit weather of the Northeast, that prowess did not always transfer well in the crew environment: The were essentially flying single pilot in a multi crew aircraft, and needed CRM training to learn to utilize the other pilot. I was guilty of it too, and taking CRM seriously really helped.

Bottom Line: The Metro (substitute C130, C17, B52, KC135) pilot probably can't do a high yo-yo like the fighter pilot can, but the fighter pilot could probably learn a few things that the Metro pilot brings to the table, as well: Important tenets of the multi-crew environment are respect, humility, and a willingness to learn from and to trust one another. Airlines value this and it is something that comes on pretty quickly with some good CRM and crew experience.

F16Driver

Your post is an irrelevant response to my original one.

FACT: Pilots who washout of a fighter track (T-38, IFF, FTU) are normally sent to a heavy aircraft barring any serious issues. It doesn’t work the other way around.

So again, the MAJORITY of pilots who aren’t good enough to fly fighter aircraft are sent to crew aircraft.

727C47

It’s not feelings amigo , of the mil guys I’ve flown with the transport heavy guys are the best sticks I’ve seen from that phylum , a lot were from guard units where they joined to fly that particular ship so it probably wasn't a matter of class standing , no matter , they fly it well , there are exceptions to every rule of course , Cheers and best of luck to you .

MudhammedCJ

The funniest part of this "best of the best" garbage is that in the end we are talking about ending up working for modern day FJ. Maybe 15 -20 years ago it was part of a normal progression to a career job and a few good guys even stayed. That said, anyone currently going to or staying at FJ must have some serious problems. Like the inability to get hired by Mesa. Or kallitta.

symbian simian

Yeah. You seem to think that your ability to fly fighters will have any bearing on your ability to fly pax in a crew aircraft in the civil ATC environment. Some of the worst pilots my wife flew with at the regionals were the single seat types that felt they should have gone straight to the majors because they were the best of the best (never mind the chip because the captain was female...). Some of the best were the ones that realized single seat is very different from the airlines, wanted to learn on top of already being great sticks.

You seem to desperately want to put yourself in group one for some reason....

F16Driver

You seem to read a lot into a factual statement by me.

Good luck, OP, with the logbook. The paycheck in the civilian world is great, but the overall flying will bore you to f’ing tears.

Jeff Lebowski

I agree! Unless you can shoot somebody down, what's the point of strapping into an airplane?

fooled2x

If you aren't going to make the fuel bonus anyway...

B727DRVR

Hey F16,

I don't believe what I told you about multi crew aircraft in the civilian world was at all irrelevant. You were pondering, or maybe lamenting, that Military pilots that came from a crew aircraft seemed to have an edge in the civilian aviation world over the fighter types... And, you subtly hint at since fighter pilots are superior in the Military world, that it seems strange that they don't have the same advantage in the civilian world.

The answer lies in the fact that multi crew aircraft flying better translates to civilian flying than flying fighters does, and now the E-8, C-5, C-130, C-17, KC-135 pilot now has the edge. Airlines, cargo and passenger, Fractionals, Charter carriers, etc. don't care how well you can fly nap of the earth or Air Combat Maneuvering, but they do care how well you work in a team environment. In most civilian flying, you will be flying with all types of fellow pilots with varied backgrounds, many with credentials better than yours and many with credentials less than yours. Some of these pilots with less credentials will be senior to you and may be instructing you or supervising you. You will be flying with pilots of many different religions, ethnicities, political affiliations, sexes, gender identities, and you will be spending from 3 days to two weeks with these people. If you are flying passenger 121, part of your team will include flight attendants. Also, you will be interacting with crew scheduling, dispatchers, gate agents, rampers, fuelers, etc. You will be flying a Captain who may be much younger than you, and may not have been fortunate enough to have flown fighters like yourself. Regardless of what they flew before this job doesn't matter, it's how they perform in this new mission and you are going to have to get along with them.

What I'm getting at is that in the civilian world, there is a lot more to completing a successful week of flying than just your flying skills and the airlines know this. Spending a week with someone miserable to fly with to me is more painful than many can imagine... I guess what I am trying to say is that you might be a little obtuse by publicly musing (or lamenting) on a pilot forum that those washouts who were "inferior" to you were now preferred by some airlines. One of the coolest fighter pilots that I ever flew with was also remarkably humble. He never played it up and it wasn't the first topic of his conversations. It's OK to KNOW that you are superior to your fellow pilot, but to SAY or POST it on this forum puts you into a stereotype. Don't be that stereotype.....


PS- I'm sorry that you are bored with civilian flying.. Maybe you should look into charter or fractional flying, where you will be flying with little to no notice flights into some of the most challenging airports in the world. There is also air ambulance flying, which is particularly rewarding. And even more exciting and lucrative than that is ISR flying, done by L3, Avenge, etc... Air attack fighting fires looks to be really fun. No reason to be bored as they are many types of civilian flying that are much more athletic than 121, 135, or 91 passenger or cargo flying.

GeeWizDriver

For identifying pilots who are good at yanking and banking and going Mach 2 with their hair on fire, this is probably true in military flight training.

But in general, many of these ace fighter jocks SUCK in a business jet cockpit which IS what we're talking about. Most of them are arrogant, selfish pricks who climb and descend and turn as if they're engaging a Mig and they land the jet like a third wire trap on a heaving carrier deck and can't get along with anybody.

One notable exception in my experience is a Marine Harrier pilot who is funny enough and crazy enough to wash the fighter pilot stink off himself.

The other exception is a good friend who is a ring knocker and was a career FB-111 driver. The ironic thing about that is, the arrogant pricks in the F-16 community didn't consider the 111 a fighter...

I have flown with a LOT of C17 and C130 drivers and I would rather have them or a civilian trained pilot sitting next to me for a week, hands down.