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Legacy Airline vs Fractional

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Legacy Airline vs Fractional

Old 08-07-2022, 12:42 PM
  #241  
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Originally Posted by jtf560 View Post
How much does an average legacy 737 or 320 captain make on an average schedule? I know it isn't found just by multiplying the hourly rate by 1000 and the W2 thread on the majors board doesn't make it easy to guess anything close to an average. I'm sure it is considerably more than a NetJets captain on the 7&7, but the average on the 7&7 is now around 250K with 0 extra days. Work day for work day I'm sure the legacies blow NJA away, but those who are willing to work more than the 7&7 average really do make quite reasonable money now, though they are definitely earning it. I would have a hard time believing a captain on the 76 day schedule would make less than 300K now, even without a bunch of extended days. The pilots who crank out the extended days are making real money. I recently flew with a Global captain who was over 300K by the end of June. That is not the norm, but it is real. I would personaly go for the legacies if I was young and they are probably a better choice for the vast majority, but to pooh pooh the money that one can make at Netjets now isn't right. It is there and it is real. It just takes more work to get it.
It is difficult to compare, and using what metrics. NJA is fairly close at this point in time.

A junior legacy PIC is probably going around $260/hr now. Guess 85 credit without fussing with a schedule, trading premium, working extra, etc. $270k + 16% B-fund is $310k.

UAL pilots voted their TA down, MEC retracted it. LECs are currently pending recall. Life ain’t all rose scented farts, no matter where you are.

The NB reserve rules are so bad at my legacy most people do not upgrade when they can hold it. Upgrades go unfilled all the time. This is much worse than NJA, much. Imagine folks at NJA bypassing upgrade? It almost never happens.

The average NJA 7/7 pilot spends about 330 hours TAFB in a month. The average 121 pilot living in base is significantly less. In fact, it’s difficult to be away from base more than 330 hours in any month…my 121 CBA more or less prohibits it. The 72&76 day NJA pilots spend a lot more TAFB. To me, this was the big difference…and a deciding factor in my decisions.

NJA is a good career. In some ways they have the FAR 121 jobs beat. In some ways they don’t.

Most of us are looking for the day we can tell management to cram it. Most of us will never set foot in our jobs again if we were financially secure. Let’s not kid ourselves. We work our jobs because we need to. Not because we love it. We all make choices to find the most tolerable company that robs us of our time and health.

There is a lot of jealousy, pride and insecurity in this industry. We all are forced to accept more work for less relative pay, every year. This is the nature of our careers…no matter where you are, pilots voluntarily chose to not use leverage every year. ALPA, NJASAP, APA, SWAPA…we all kinda suck.

Last edited by AntiPeter; 08-07-2022 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 08-07-2022, 01:55 PM
  #242  
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Originally Posted by MinRest View Post
Blah blah blah...

Says the guy who keeps getting kicked off the NJASAP message board for being a lunatic. Why were you kicked off this time? Complaining that you can't extend even more than you do now and that you want more money? Do they no longer let you extend 25 days a month so you can no longer come on APC and try and W2 flex? Poor guy...

NJA absolutely does NOT have pilots leaving first tier airlines to go there lol. You literally have CFI's with no turbine time getting CJOs to NJA posting IN THIS THREAD. Stop the lunacy.
Had one from United mainline in the last few months.

Anything else your wash women at the river are “accurately” reporting?

You are the one making the black and white claim that earnings at 121 are, in all cases, more than NetJets.

“That is also false.”

~Maury Povich
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Old 08-07-2022, 01:58 PM
  #243  
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Originally Posted by Das Auto View Post
Not everyone is wired the same way as you. Some settle for less financial gain if it means no commuting. Others may trade less time off if it means not constantly flying on the back side of the clock, which is detrimental to your health. Didn't you just post that the 7&7 schedule is roughly the same time off as a legacy? I'm amazed you slipped through the cracks during the interview process at NetJets. They're usually pretty good at filtering out the "delta bravos."

We dodged a bullet when he left.

Our gain, VAs (now ALs) loss.
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Old 08-07-2022, 03:59 PM
  #244  
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Originally Posted by AntiPeter View Post
It is difficult to compare, and using what metrics. NJA is fairly close at this point in time.

A junior legacy PIC is probably going around $260/hr now. Guess 85 credit without fussing with a schedule, trading premium, working extra, etc. $270k + 16% B-fund is $310k.

UAL pilots voted their TA down, MEC retracted it. LECs are currently pending recall. Life ain’t all rose scented farts, no matter where you are.

The NB reserve rules are so bad at my legacy most people do not upgrade when they can hold it. Upgrades go unfilled all the time. This is much worse than NJA, much. Imagine folks at NJA bypassing upgrade? It almost never happens.

The average NJA 7/7 pilot spends about 330 hours TAFB in a month. The average 121 pilot living in base is significantly less. In fact, it’s difficult to be away from base more than 330 hours in any month…my 121 CBA more or less prohibits it. The 72&76 day NJA pilots spend a lot more TAFB. To me, this was the big difference…and a deciding factor in my decisions.

NJA is a good career. In some ways they have the FAR 121 jobs beat. In some ways they don’t.

Most of us are looking for the day we can tell management to cram it. Most of us will never set foot in our jobs again if we were financially secure. Let’s not kid ourselves. We work our jobs because we need to. Not because we love it. We all make choices to find the most tolerable company that robs us of our time and health.

There is a lot of jealousy, pride and insecurity in this industry. We all are forced to accept more work for less relative pay, every year. This is the nature of our careers…no matter where you are, pilots voluntarily chose to not use leverage every year. ALPA, NJASAP, APA, SWAPA…we all kinda suck.
Well thought out post. I would like to add to your last sentence. In five contract agreements at NJA, I never came across a steward, committee chair or e-board member that had issues with a contract during the TA voting period. I have always found that interesting.
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Old 08-08-2022, 02:20 AM
  #245  
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NJASAP and the pilot group is certainly different, unique, in the fact there is no opposition and criticism is usually squashed fairly quickly. It’s also unique that they really don’t (can’t/won’t) engage in section 6 negotiations.

No longer my problem.

When I got hired at NJA a long time ago I think the busiest schedule was the 17-day per month. With the 76-day it is now 19 days per month. A lot of improvements have been made since then, but on average the pilots work a lot harder to and spend more time away from home. NJA management can do more with less, the pilot group size has shrunk considerably.

For the most part, NJA pilots have welcomed this with open arms. Probably the most successful and well funded company in the history of bizjet aviation, and the only way to make a decent wage is add-pay contracts outside of section 6 that allow the company to shrink the pilot group.

I remember when Luthi was so concerned about EJM and NJI and scope, but sometimes the devil is sitting next to us.

This is the main difference between NJA and 121 companies, and it is rarely talked about. It is what the pilot groups are willing to accept. We can talk about health insurance and everything else all day long, but the main difference, to me, is NJA pilots have embraced a system where there are no options. There is no dissent, no real negotiation or grievance with the company, no real ability to change anything substantial.

Every pilot group has to fight to make improvements. A sad reality. NJA pilots simply aren’t willing to do that. You get what you negotiate, or you get what the company is willing to give you.
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Old 08-08-2022, 02:40 AM
  #246  
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Originally Posted by AntiPeter View Post
NJASAP and the pilot group is certainly different, unique, in the fact there is no opposition and criticism is usually squashed fairly quickly. It’s also unique that they really don’t (can’t/won’t) engage in section 6 negotiations.

No longer my problem.

When I got hired at NJA a long time ago I think the busiest schedule was the 17-day per month. With the 76-day it is now 19 days per month. A lot of improvements have been made since then, but on average the pilots work a lot harder to and spend more time away from home. NJA management can do more with less, the pilot group size has shrunk considerably.

For the most part, NJA pilots have welcomed this with open arms. Probably the most successful and well funded company in the history of bizjet aviation, and the only way to make a decent wage is add-pay contracts outside of section 6 that allow the company to shrink the pilot group.

I remember when Luthi was so concerned about EJM and NJI and scope, but sometimes the devil is sitting next to us.

This is the main difference between NJA and 121 companies, and it is rarely talked about. It is what the pilot groups are willing to accept. We can talk about health insurance and everything else all day long, but the main difference, to me, is NJA pilots have embraced a system where there are no options. There is no dissent, no real negotiation or grievance with the company, no real ability to change anything substantial.

Every pilot group has to fight to make improvements. A sad reality. NJA pilots simply aren’t willing to do that. You get what you negotiate, or you get what the company is willing to give you.
+1

I think every new-hire at NJA should read your last two posts.
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:29 AM
  #247  
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Originally Posted by Boeing Aviator View Post
Some of this may have been discussed already but here’s my two cents for what it’s worth. Also I want to state up front I hope I don’t come off as some arrogant spoiled rotten united pilot. That’s not my intent and trust me, I thank my lucky stars everyday I am where I am. Additionally, I accept its no more then pure luck that I am where I am in terms of seniority and how my career ended up the way it did. It easily could have turned out completely opposite. As you all know this industry is a total crap shoot.

That all being said. As a fairly senior 777 CA at a legacy my pay, quality of life both at home but just as importantly at work far exceeds that of any fractional (again my opinion). Most of this is due to a strong union and contract that has been constantly tweaked and amended and improved over decades. I also believe flying a widebody for a ME3 carrier or ACMI in no way compares to a US legacy. However, I would honestly say that flying for Fedex or UPS exceeds flying at United or the other legacies in terms of overall pay, retirement and quality of life.

I’ll try to keep my post fairly short.

We have many (widebody and narrow body) pilots who choose to chase the money. Many widebody CA’s earn over 500K (plus 16% company 401K contributions) I fly with some senior FO’s who earn north of 400K. This largely due to soft time, DH and contractual trip & duty riggs. That’s why many of the senior widebody FO’s bypass narrow body CA’s and even earn more then 757/767 CA’s and wait till their senior enough to jump the garbage bag and upgrade on a widebody as line holders (as they make more then reserve widebody CA’s).

If your looking for max time off on a widebody you can hold up to 18 to 20 days off in a non vacation month. In a vacation month up to 24 or more days off (again maximizing days off and not pay)

At UAL after 11 years you get 5 weeks of vacation and after 25 years 6 weeks of vacation. We can use vacation months to either increase days off or to maximize pay, a pilots individual choice. So for many of us we have a vacation month almost half the year.

Quality of life at work. Widebody mostly one leg a day. Half the time getting paid to sit in FC seat and watch movies or sleeping
in a bunk (dozing for dollars). Example on longer flights you can easily get a 6 to 7 hour break. So really the time your actually in the flight deck is like flying a transcon. Most layovers at 4 or 5 star downtown hotels. Average layover 24 to 36 hours some 72 hours or more. The long ones are good for soft time (earning money to sit and not fly) . Soft time keeps your FAR times down so you can earn extra money if you choose. DH at 100% pay in FC. Even shorter domestic layovers (mostly) get private town car or bus to hotel not airport hotel vans.

From what I’ve read on here and heard directly from friends who fly for fractionals. The only real advantage is the positive space tickets to and from your home. I live in base so that wouldn’t matter to me but most legacy pilots do commute so that is a definitely a huge advantage.

Thats really all I see as an advantage at a fractional. Fractional pilots work their tails off in all the non flying duties, plus multiple leg long duty days. Airline pilots are spoiled & spoon fed. We turn left when we get to work and work and turn right when we leave, no extra duties. When I hear of an average of 14 hour layovers and long duty days for 7 to 15 straight days at the fractionals, I honestly I get nauseous. Sure as a young kid building time no big deal. But after 20 plus years, no thank you that’s too much work and a very low quality of life at work in my opinion.

I get that widebody flying isn’t for everyone. Senior narrowbody flying at United, you can fly one leg transcons or very productive turns or even very productive Caribbean turns (especially if you live in base) and get lots of days off or pick up an earn extra money. I know pilots in my seniority range who make a lot more then I do picking up premium pay narrow body trips.

Anyway if you have 20 or more years in my opinion your selling yourself way to short if you go to a fractional vs a legacy.
Okay, so put yourself in my shoes for a moment. First job outside of flight instruction with a CJO from NetJets and Skywest. I could make 70,000k more first year, better QOL, and more interesting trips. What would you do? Not trying to use NJA as a steppingstone, but I imagine I'd still have an opportunity for a legacy if I chose that in a few years.
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Old 08-10-2022, 03:35 PM
  #248  
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How many NJA pilots are you guys seeing leaving for LCCs or Majors? Is it possible to do without any 121 time or PIC jet time? Need to make a decision between OO and NJA. Unsure of my end goal, but I'm attracted to initial pay, type of flying, QOL, etc. Also, don't want to limit myself just in case I didn't like the fractional work. This will be my first paid job outside of CFIing.
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Old 08-10-2022, 04:23 PM
  #249  
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Originally Posted by Jackrabbit57006 View Post
How many NJA pilots are you guys seeing leaving for LCCs or Majors? Is it possible to do without any 121 time or PIC jet time? Need to make a decision between OO and NJA. Unsure of my end goal, but I'm attracted to initial pay, type of flying, QOL, etc. Also, don't want to limit myself just in case I didn't like the fractional work. This will be my first paid job outside of CFIing.
Turbine time is turbine time, 1000 turbine time is the new 1000 pic turbine time. Now if you want FedEx or UPS someday or Delta. You'll need some pic turbine time.
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Old 08-10-2022, 04:50 PM
  #250  
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Originally Posted by Jackrabbit57006 View Post
How many NJA pilots are you guys seeing leaving for LCCs or Majors? Is it possible to do without any 121 time or PIC jet time? Need to make a decision between OO and NJA. Unsure of my end goal, but I'm attracted to initial pay, type of flying, QOL, etc. Also, don't want to limit myself just in case I didn't like the fractional work. This will be my first paid job outside of CFIing.
Lack of turbine PIC doesn't seem to matter for those who have bailed out for the LCCs and Alaska. Everyone I know who bailed out for legacies or Southwest had PIC turbine, but I don't know if that is a sticking point anymore or not. Good luck whatever you decide.
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