Legacy Airline vs Fractional
04-25-2022, 05:18 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by Boeing Aviator
Can’t believe I omitted the following in my previous post above. This obviously excludes Net Jets that not only has a union but a strong union and very good contract.
Having started my 35 year airline career at a non union carrier, later to a weak independent union and now to a strong national union but most importantly a strong local unit of the national union.
I couldn’t imagine working anywhere for 20 or 20 plus years at a non union company or even with a union but essentially a weak union.
Don’t look at any current management (senior and middle), pay, working conditions etc. at any fractional. Managements come and go, acquisitions & mergers happen. Everything about your very good or great fractional (again Net Jets excluded) today could be gone tomorrow, a few years from today or in 15 years. What if your told 10 years from now to move to XYZ or your job is gone?
If your at a company for 20 or more years all you have is your seniority. Forget about a seniority system vs a merit upgrade system. What about fired at will (except for discrimination) vs. having to have just cause (a much more difficult standard to meet at union carrier with a good contract). What about furloughs out of seniority or just being let go permanently, maybe out of seniority at a non union flying job. What about massive pay cuts and or significant degradations of quality of life at work and or home compared to todays fractionals?
The whole great fractional job today could turn 180 degrees opposite in a year or 15 years from now. That’s for too much period of a career with no legal, enforceable contractual protections. Way too many career unknowns to gamble with. I believe for someone with 20 or more years to go especially if already at a legacy today.
Having started my 35 year airline career at a non union carrier, later to a weak independent union and now to a strong national union but most importantly a strong local unit of the national union.
I couldn’t imagine working anywhere for 20 or 20 plus years at a non union company or even with a union but essentially a weak union.
Don’t look at any current management (senior and middle), pay, working conditions etc. at any fractional. Managements come and go, acquisitions & mergers happen. Everything about your very good or great fractional (again Net Jets excluded) today could be gone tomorrow, a few years from today or in 15 years. What if your told 10 years from now to move to XYZ or your job is gone?
If your at a company for 20 or more years all you have is your seniority. Forget about a seniority system vs a merit upgrade system. What about fired at will (except for discrimination) vs. having to have just cause (a much more difficult standard to meet at union carrier with a good contract). What about furloughs out of seniority or just being let go permanently, maybe out of seniority at a non union flying job. What about massive pay cuts and or significant degradations of quality of life at work and or home compared to todays fractionals?
The whole great fractional job today could turn 180 degrees opposite in a year or 15 years from now. That’s for too much period of a career with no legal, enforceable contractual protections. Way too many career unknowns to gamble with. I believe for someone with 20 or more years to go especially if already at a legacy today.
04-25-2022, 05:55 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 736
Originally Posted by jtf560
14 hour average overnights is not the case at the fractionals unless you are on the long range fleets. The current average is probably around 11 hours.
Wow that’s really bad. What’s the actual behind the door at the hotel 8 1/2 to 9 hours? A day or two on a long tour is one thing but day after day for 7 to 15 days, fatigue is cumulative. You can’t magically fall asleep when you close the hotel room door. You need to
unwind before you sleep and even after you wake up, and xcsrcise decompress etc. That’s got to take a severe toll
long term, especially for a 20 or more year career.
I’d much rather deal with circadian rhythm issues with long haul flying. Considering bunks on the plane and long layovers to catch up on sleep.
The reason I said 14 hours is that what I was told by a friend who is a new hire at XO (only been on line about 6 months) flying the Citation X. I was just speaking to a friend who flies for a bottom feeder 135 operator that pretends to act like a fractional with 8 on 6 off. He told me they average 10 hour overnights. This pilot is leaving for Republic..
04-25-2022, 06:11 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 736
Originally Posted by HeavyD
When you retire, would you please come to NetJets with a few of your peers that think like you and run for union leadership positions.
and a rep.
in all seriousness keep finding the best and brightest and ask them to step up. If they won’t step up find a way to get them to step up. Keep bringing in new blood. Educate the new hires, stay unified and keep fighting. If you have weak leadership, or in there positions to long and or are to comfortable then vote them out.
Even if your leadership isn’t perfect your still light years ahead of all the non union - fractionals. Sure there is a pilot shortage now and it appears so for the foreseeable future. Things change and black swan events happen. Two years ago how many pilot furloughs were projected.
Inflation, recession something catastrophic to the fractional market. Watch these nonunion fractionals change pay and working conditions overnight.
04-26-2022, 02:58 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by Boeing Aviator
Been there and done that. 20 years union work, organizing, strike prep
and a rep.
in all seriousness keep finding the best and brightest and ask them to step up. If they won’t step up find a way to get them to step up. Keep bringing in new blood. Educate the new hires, stay unified and keep fighting. If you have weak leadership, or in there positions to long and or are to comfortable then vote them out.
Even if your leadership isn’t perfect your still light years ahead of all the non union - fractionals. Sure there is a pilot shortage now and it appears so for the foreseeable future. Things change and black swan events happen. Two years ago how many pilot furloughs were projected.
Inflation, recession something catastrophic to the fractional market. Watch these nonunion fractionals change pay and working conditions overnight.
and a rep.
in all seriousness keep finding the best and brightest and ask them to step up. If they won’t step up find a way to get them to step up. Keep bringing in new blood. Educate the new hires, stay unified and keep fighting. If you have weak leadership, or in there positions to long and or are to comfortable then vote them out.
Even if your leadership isn’t perfect your still light years ahead of all the non union - fractionals. Sure there is a pilot shortage now and it appears so for the foreseeable future. Things change and black swan events happen. Two years ago how many pilot furloughs were projected.
Inflation, recession something catastrophic to the fractional market. Watch these nonunion fractionals change pay and working conditions overnight.
04-26-2022, 08:54 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 736
Originally Posted by Flyfalcons
Wow I had no idea a senior widebody captain has good pay and QOL.
Remember most widebody line holders have north of 11 years so they get 5 or 6 weeks of vacation per year. You can get awarded more then one week in a month but many like myself try to get a many months with one week of vacation. So you can turn that into more days off or more pay, individuals choice.
Obviously China is still shut down. But we are starting some Asia long haul out of EWR & SFO. An though Europe isn’t that productive (mostly 757/767) some of what we are doing now on the 777 is W flying. Example EWR - London - SFO - London - EWR. That’s more productive then traditional European flying. More Asia cities are possible if China stays locked down.
I was somewhat skeptical before trying long haul, as to how difficult it would be for me. In actuality I’m far less fatigued flying long haul Asia & India then I was flying traditional 3 day Europe on the 757/767 for many years.
Again it’s not for everyone. But most get addicted to the flying and the choice of quality of life at home and work and or the ability to make extra pay. I’ve done all types of flying, narrow body domestic, 767 Europe and now long haul 777. By far the 777 is the absolute best flying of my 35 year airline career.
04-26-2022, 10:47 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 736
Originally Posted by Flyfalcons
I guess you missed my sarcasm. But thank you for the preceeding five paragraph explanation.
Last edited by Boeing Aviator; 04-26-2022 at 11:23 AM.
04-26-2022, 11:43 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Chrysler Pacifica
Posts: 203
Originally Posted by Boeing Aviator
Wow that’s really bad. What’s the actual behind the door at the hotel 8 1/2 to 9 hours? A day or two on a long tour is one thing but day after day for 7 to 15 days, fatigue is cumulative. You can’t magically fall asleep when you close the hotel room door. You need to
unwind before you sleep and even after you wake up, and xcsrcise decompress etc. That’s got to take a severe toll
long term, especially for a 20 or more year career.
I’d much rather deal with circadian rhythm issues with long haul flying. Considering bunks on the plane and long layovers to catch up on sleep.
The reason I said 14 hours is that what I was told by a friend who is a new hire at XO (only been on line about 6 months) flying the Citation X. I was just speaking to a friend who flies for a bottom feeder 135 operator that pretends to act like a fractional with 8 on 6 off. He told me they average 10 hour overnights. This pilot is leaving for Republic..
unwind before you sleep and even after you wake up, and xcsrcise decompress etc. That’s got to take a severe toll
long term, especially for a 20 or more year career.
I’d much rather deal with circadian rhythm issues with long haul flying. Considering bunks on the plane and long layovers to catch up on sleep.
The reason I said 14 hours is that what I was told by a friend who is a new hire at XO (only been on line about 6 months) flying the Citation X. I was just speaking to a friend who flies for a bottom feeder 135 operator that pretends to act like a fractional with 8 on 6 off. He told me they average 10 hour overnights. This pilot is leaving for Republic..
04-26-2022, 12:11 PM
#40
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,468
Originally Posted by Boeing Aviator
Yes, for the most part international long haul widebody flying is very productive. Pre covid mostly Asia, India or the Middle East on the 777 for UAL in EWR. Asia and Europe, Middle east in SFO. IAH mostly South America, Hawaii and Europe. DC - Europe, Middle East and some Asia. Mostly 28 to 32 hour four day trips, some 18 to 23 hour 3 day trips. Also some less productive domestic (hub to hub or Transcon) and Europe mixed in too. So it only takes about 10 - 12 days of flying in a non vacation month to fly a normal 75 to 85 hour month if your aiming for max days off if your getting mostly long haul trips. Obviously less days off if you choice to maximize pay.
Remember most widebody line holders have north of 11 years so they get 5 or 6 weeks of vacation per year. You can get awarded more then one week in a month but many like myself try to get a many months with one week of vacation. So you can turn that into more days off or more pay, individuals choice.
Obviously China is still shut down. But we are starting some Asia long haul out of EWR & SFO. An though Europe isn’t that productive (mostly 757/767) some of what we are doing now on the 777 is W flying. Example EWR - London - SFO - London - EWR. That’s more productive then traditional European flying. More Asia cities are possible if China stays locked down.
I was somewhat skeptical before trying long haul, as to how difficult it would be for me. In actuality I’m far less fatigued flying long haul Asia & India then I was flying traditional 3 day Europe on the 757/767 for many years.
Again it’s not for everyone. But most get addicted to the flying and the choice of quality of life at home and work and or the ability to make extra pay. I’ve done all types of flying, narrow body domestic, 767 Europe and now long haul 777. By far the 777 is the absolute best flying of my 35 year airline career.
Remember most widebody line holders have north of 11 years so they get 5 or 6 weeks of vacation per year. You can get awarded more then one week in a month but many like myself try to get a many months with one week of vacation. So you can turn that into more days off or more pay, individuals choice.
Obviously China is still shut down. But we are starting some Asia long haul out of EWR & SFO. An though Europe isn’t that productive (mostly 757/767) some of what we are doing now on the 777 is W flying. Example EWR - London - SFO - London - EWR. That’s more productive then traditional European flying. More Asia cities are possible if China stays locked down.
I was somewhat skeptical before trying long haul, as to how difficult it would be for me. In actuality I’m far less fatigued flying long haul Asia & India then I was flying traditional 3 day Europe on the 757/767 for many years.
Again it’s not for everyone. But most get addicted to the flying and the choice of quality of life at home and work and or the ability to make extra pay. I’ve done all types of flying, narrow body domestic, 767 Europe and now long haul 777. By far the 777 is the absolute best flying of my 35 year airline career.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
