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Old 10-04-2007, 12:45 PM   #41  
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Any odds on them lowering their hiring mins. I'm sitting at 2200hrs and want my resume in lol. I'm getting about 80-85hrs a month and it's just taking forever. I want my next company to be my last one. I'm ready to be a lifer somewhere.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:15 PM   #42  
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I doubt highly that will happen. It's a marketing tool and I've heard the 2500 hour min is memorialized in all the owner contracts. You're pretty close. It won't be long.

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Another thing people don't like is the mandated use of the company credit card. This is not a no vote issue by itself, but many feel it is a poke in the eye. A large number of people use the Hilton AMEX to get 5 times the HHonors points. We stay at a lot of Hiltons on the road.
It's not all bad. I've been on the company card for a few years. You get the airline miles and now with the added benefit that the miles never expire (if this passes). So while we do lose the nice Hilton bonuses, you're airline miles will add up quick, especially since airline tickets are put on the card. 40,000 points gets you a ticket with no blackout dates to anywhere in the US on any airline with an available seat. Plus you get some added benefits with regards to identity theft, travel insurance if your airliner crashes, etc. Not a bad deal, but, it's still not Hilton points .
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:39 PM   #43  
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I'm sitting at 3500hrs and 2200 jet time SIC. My only concern would be I don't have an ATP, but if I could be home based and start at 60k I'd go and get it.

My main question is this... for those of you at Netjets would you suggest working there?
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:47 PM   #44  
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I think it's the best gig going right now if you don't mind working hard and the lack an airline route schedule/structure/big airplanes/terminal food/crazy economic cycles/TSA everyday/etc... If the crew bases come into effect, I think you'll see turnover drop to virtually nothing. Luckily we're growing, so you'll still move up the ranks. Even the 50 guys that complain about everything, everyday, everywhere, don't have plans to go anywhere anytime soon.

But you gotta have the ATP.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:50 PM   #45  
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Great info from those who have read the proposal. It was asked earlier, but I would still like to hear more about what the pilot group will have to "give away". I come from the school of thought that says "nothing is for free". There MUST be a reason for the huge pay bump and the pilot bases (the two largest issues). Are they trying to out-pay the competition in order to suck in all the best pilots? Is there a hiring shortage because the majors are finally hiring again? (I doubt that though) Are they driving up the pay so that IF the competition match, they will go bankrupt? Is there some fine print that isn't known about 401K, benefits, health care, etc.?

Bottom line is, what's the catch?
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:16 PM   #46  
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Originally Posted by Pilot_135 View Post
Great info from those who have read the proposal. It was asked earlier, but I would still like to hear more about what the pilot group will have to "give away". I come from the school of thought that says "nothing is for free". There MUST be a reason for the huge pay bump and the pilot bases (the two largest issues). Are they trying to out-pay the competition in order to suck in all the best pilots? Is there a hiring shortage because the majors are finally hiring again? (I doubt that though) Are they driving up the pay so that IF the competition match, they will go bankrupt? Is there some fine print that isn't known about 401K, benefits, health care, etc.?

Bottom line is, what's the catch?
First, even with the current pay and basing issues for FO's, there's still no shortage of qualified applicants.

One thing the company gets by extending the contract, even at higher labor cost, is a known future cost vs. an unknown cost. The last contract negotiations were pretty ugly, with owner satisfaction numbers way down. The company leadership doesn't want that replayed in 2010 when the current contract would expire. This IBB has resulted in zero effect on productivity, and was essentially transparent to the owners.

One way this contract would save the company money and increase productivity is by extending lateral seat locks from the current 24 months to 39 months. It won't keep FO's from upgrading on time, but it does slow down captains who want to change aircraft every couple of years. I see this as a plus since it frees up more training slots at FSI, meaning as we buy all the new planes we plan, sim training shouldn't be the choke point in upgrading new captains. The differences pay for the XL/XLS guys also goes away, but the total savings isn't that significant overall.

Cuts in retiree heath care will save the company some money as well. Our union leaders say the current system was destined to fail anyway and they want to explore other alternatives.

The company also wanted to close a couple of big loopholes in scheduling that cost them in productivity. For example, senior pilots who had earned four vacation periods per year and knew how to work the placement of their H-days on the reserve schedule could manage to work only about 7 days per month, four months out the year.

There are different opinions out there, but the chairman has been quoted as saying the domicile system really wasn't working out for the company either. They could have increased the number of domiciles without renegotiating the contract, so I don't think this was truly a motivator for the company to go to the bargaining table.

Mostly opinion here, so take it for what it's worth.

- NTFB
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:18 PM   #47  
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Geez, it's hard to say. The "catch", if a person has one, will be different for everyone. A couple I've heard repeated most often aren't really catches for me. The contract being extended to 2013 from 2010 is a catch for some (I see it as an extra 3 years of stability in my life). Loss of the current HBA system is a catch for some that hoped to use an airport in the future that is not on the list of 100 (although NOBODY loses their current HBA if this passes and I suspect the list of 100 crew bases will accomodate 90% of the pilots here). Another benefit with the 100 crew bases is that the section will be removed from future negotiations per language in our contract unless BOTH sides agree to discuss it. So they are safe in future contracts.

Regarding hiring, there is a problem keeping new hires that don't like the domicile system. They come and get the type-rating, then leave for a corporate job closer to their home. That would likely end (or at least be greatly reduced) under the crew base system. Bankrupting other companies that try to play catch up - sounds good to me.

Benefits are unchanged, except for retiree medical which will undergo modifications to work better with Medicare (it's not being eliminated). 401k actually got some small improvements (still a 50% match).

Additional opportunities to earn some overtime if we are on standby duty for over 3 hours in a day.

Crew food program language was improved.

A HUGE benefit I saw was the addition of some scope language regarding international flying. That helped alleviate some of the concerns I have about the Netjets Europe guys flying our passengers from the U.S. to Europe/Middle East/Asia and back on their Falcon 7X's instead of our guys doing it on our planes.

I don't see anything sneaky written in there. I have no doubt the company will come up with creative interpretations of things. That always happens. It's part of the game. It's up to us to keep them honest through the grievance process.
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:34 PM   #48  
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Hi!

What I heard re NetJets:
The company was often losing money airlining guys out of a "base" when tickets from their home were cheaper (ex: CMH vs. DTW).

They were losing lots of new guys because of the 5 bases. Some came in and assumed the basing would change, and left because it didn't. Other guys thought the commute would be OK, but, when they actually tried it, over and over, they realized it was impractical and bailed.

Pilot Shortage:
There has been a shortage of pilots building for a while. It is becoming worse and worse monthly. I guarantee that NetJets was NOT getting the same number/quality of guys in the last 6 months that they were getting earlier. I heard they were short of their hiring goals for 2007, which greatly increased those needed in 2008, while hiring has been getting harder and harder.

I would guess that NetJets mgmt realized that an industry leading contract would suck up a number of guys from other fracs, thus increasing NetJets competitive position. Additionally, NetJets has ordered a TON of new aircraft, and needs a lot of pilots down the roads.

What NetJets mgmt is doing, is the opposite of AA mgmt, who, reportadly, has asked for a 20% paycut. They are oblivious to the hiring situation.

I think NetJets mgmt wants to increase their net profit. Often, to do this, you must spend more money to make money. I hope this contract passes and it works great for NetJets.

cliff
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:17 PM   #49  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atpcliff View Post
Hi!

What I heard re NetJets:
The company was often losing money airlining guys out of a "base" when tickets from their home were cheaper (ex: CMH vs. DTW).

They were losing lots of new guys because of the 5 bases. Some came in and assumed the basing would change, and left because it didn't. Other guys thought the commute would be OK, but, when they actually tried it, over and over, they realized it was impractical and bailed.

Pilot Shortage:
There has been a shortage of pilots building for a while. It is becoming worse and worse monthly. I guarantee that NetJets was NOT getting the same number/quality of guys in the last 6 months that they were getting earlier. I heard they were short of their hiring goals for 2007, which greatly increased those needed in 2008, while hiring has been getting harder and harder.

I would guess that NetJets mgmt realized that an industry leading contract would suck up a number of guys from other fracs, thus increasing NetJets competitive position. Additionally, NetJets has ordered a TON of new aircraft, and needs a lot of pilots down the roads.

What NetJets mgmt is doing, is the opposite of AA mgmt, who, reportadly, has asked for a 20% paycut. They are oblivious to the hiring situation.

I think NetJets mgmt wants to increase their net profit. Often, to do this, you must spend more money to make money. I hope this contract passes and it works great for NetJets.

cliff
YIP
Cliff,
Don't believe all the rumors you hear. There aren't "lots of guys" leaving. A few have left, and I've only heard of two who left because of the commute. After all, we all knew about it when we got hired and didn't expect relief until at least 2010.

If the airline costs were the issue regarding domiciles, the company could have opened as many new domiciles as they chose, without even having to modify the 2005 contract. It would have also sucked any pre-contract pilots with Home Basing rights into the domicile if they lived within 90 miles of the new one(s) opened. They didn't have to give up anything for that.

As far as the pilot shortage, it hasn't hit NJA. Plenty of very qualifieds applicants waiting for an interview. I've even sponsored a couple who are still waiting for a call. Are we getting the most qualified applicants? Maybe not, if money is their biggest motivation. The chairman has said he wants the world's best pilots at NetJets, so part of the big FO raise may be a carrot to get the most qualified.

Another thing you have to remember is that the previous FO pay scales were written when upgrades to captain took maybe 12-18 months. Nobody expected for an FO to have to live on FO pay for 5 or more years. That necessitated another look at the FO pay scales.

-NTFB
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:24 PM   #50  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atpcliff View Post
Hi!

I heard they were short of their hiring goals for 2007, which greatly increased those needed in 2008, while hiring has been getting harder and harder.
The hiring was reduced this year so that training could catch up. The problem with training is and will continue to be Flight Safety. FSI is understaffed and with everyone going back twice of year, they are busy. As we grow, the problem only worsens. I heard a rumor this past week that this issue was being looked at and a new facility was being considerd to house more sims.
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