Netjets new TA pay FO yr 1 $69,188.
 

Proposed 100 crew bases http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=A...OR=&MAP-STYLE=

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=103916

All new hires will start on 18 day schedule pay. First year 18 day FO pay is 69,188 base pay.

7&7 Base Wage Table: PIC/F/O & F/O Over 40K lbs.


Base pay prior to OT, Holiday, Ext Days

15 Day Flex Base Wage Table: PIC F/O&/F/O Greater Than 40K lbs



18 Day Fixed Base Wage Tables: PIC F/O& F/O Greater Than 40K lbs

1 $106,444 .......1 $69,188 $79,073
2 $110,169 .......2 $71,610 $81,840
3 $114,025 .......3 $77,537 $84,704
4 $118,016 .......4 $80,251 $87,669
5 $122,147 .......5 $83,060 $90,738
6 $126,422 .......6 $88,495 $93,913
7 $130,847 .......7 $91,593 $97,200
8 $135,426 .......8 $93,882 $100,602
9 $140,166 .......9 $96,229 $104,123
10 $145,072 ......10 $98,635 $107,768
11 $150,149
12 $155,405
13 $160,844
14 $166,473

Base pay only.

All right, so I don't want to sound ignorant...but what's with the different pay scales? How's that work, are the new guys still working 7&7?

This is as I understand it today. It may change tomorrow when I see the full document.

7/7 is the same as today. Work 7 days, off 7 days.

15 day flex, is a 15 day work month - max. You have no control of the schedule. The max days on is 5. 1 day on gives you a min of 3 days off. This sched is fixed (max/min) at 10% for fleet/seat. No H-days.

18 day is a fixed schedule. This sched is posted on the 15th of the month prior. There is supposedly going to be a preferintial (sp?) bidding system. No H-days. No limit to the amount of people on the sched. This is the default schedule for trainees, new hires, upgrades, etc.

Curious to know- what's the pay for <40K lbs?

Josh,

How I am reading it, only the third column applies to FO's in the >40K category. The first two columns apply to PIC's and FO's in <40K.

I may be wrong, as it happens often enough.;)


EXTW

Josh,

I misread it at first as well, it seems like the middle column is for all FO under 40K lbs. The 15 Flex sounds great but it seems like only 10% of all seats per fleet with no Holidays, so I imagine those seats will go very senior.

Either way, the increase is great and has absolutely cemented me at NJA until retirement, unless something unforeseen happens. I start on Monday, I can't wait to get there. :-)

Is this set in stone or does it have to go to a vote? If so, then is it tied to the package that includes the new domicile system? Or am I completely out of the loop and the vote has already occurred?:confused:

Well that does it my resume is on it's way.

This pay, 100 bases and several other areas of the contract will be voted on in oct or nov.

And, does this mean that new hires MUST work the 18 day schedule.... no option for 7/7? That would be a downer for us guys looking for stability in schedule.

Okay- thanks. For some reason I still had the off reserve/on reserve pay tables that I've seen before in my mind.

Good on you guys for continually RAISING the bar.

~J

That would be goofy, you're on the reserve until released to IOE. A 4 year 7&7 fo that that is awarded capt also goes to the reserve schedule and pay $122,147. until training is completed than can go back to 7&7 if desired.

A few people may also be able to bid 15-Flex, if their training events lined up nicely with the annual bid.

Here's one question: What are the chances of the "proposed bases" happening? The wife has thrown out the anchor here at IAD, but it's on the list. Even if they decided on DCA or BWI, I'm still within 2 hours. When will you know for sure?

Thanks

It's all or nothing on the vote. Work rules, basing, pay, everything. If it gets voted in, it's in place until at least mid-2013 unless both company and union agree to amend. If it gets voted down, we revert to our current contract at least until late 2010.

More on specifics later.

OK, thanks for the info. I'd be curious to hear what the sentiment is. The pay plus the new bases got my attention, and I'm probably on the higher end of folks you would see as new hires (10k, 6k pic jet). Hope it all works out. Thanks again for the info.

z

Agreed with Josh. Assuming this is final, the rest of the industry will have to increase their packages to at least some level in order to stay competitive. With a shrinking supply of new pilots on the horizon....:DShould mean good things for the future!

Mr. I.

You should go fly for UA if you want IAD.

So why is NetJet's proposing this TA?? I know the contract has not reached its ammendable date. Is NetJet's offering this in return for something else? If so, what.

FYI, I am pretty sure that almost all of NetJet's airplanes are under 40,000lbs. I checked the Citation X, Citation Sovereign, Falcon 2000, Falcon 2000EX, and the G200, and they are all about 35,000lbs. Is the only aircraft over 40,000lbs the BBJ?

Thanks. The package looks great and I hope it passes (assuming there are no crazy drawbacks that I have yet to hear about).

The sentiment in general seems to be: Anybody hired since Nov 2005 ratification of the last contract will vote for it, many of the "pre-rat" people will vote against it. The "NO" voters seem to feel too much will be given up down the line including extending the amendable date, scheduling, home basing, sick leave versus personal time off (PTO), and other issues. The desperately needed pay increase and improved basing for newbies may go by the boards until 2010. As the man said: "Caveat emptor." (that's "buyer beware" for those edumacated in public school).

NetJets has always made it clear that any overage of thier minimum flight experience requirements doesn't help you in the process. Better hope they like you.

Just to clarify on the pay under this proposal, all captains at NJA will be paid the same regardless of aircraft type for airplanes under 100,000# MTOW. Captain pay is based on years of service with NJA. 5 year XL captain and 5 year G-200 captain will make the same. F/O pay is where the 40,000# MTOW issue comes in to play. Realistically, all new hires at Netjets will be on the pay scale for less than 40,000#. Why? Because we only have one plane at NJA over that weight, the Falcon 2000EZ. And there are very, very few of those planes in our fleet. The G-Wizzes at NJI are not included in this package.

So to make it simple, if this passes and you get hired at Netjets, your base salary will be as follows for your first year as a copilot (you will all start on the 18-day, but ultimately, you will be able to hold whatever schedule you want in a fairly short amount of time)

7/7 schedule: $56,875

15 day flex schedule:$62,563

18 day schedule: $69,188

And just to backup what the other NJA guys are saying, remember when you are reading all these pieces of info, it is an all or nothing deal that we have to vote on. Crew bases, salary, everything.

Also, the vote is set to be counted on or about Nov 20 according to page 99 of the IBB document we got via email.

Can someone clarify when this contract would be amendable? Did someone actually say 2016? Seems a bit long, don't you think? When could you renegotiate next?????

The amendable date is May 2013. However, there is an option for the company to extend it til May 2016 if they meet certain provisions which deal with scope, pay, crew bases, and a couple more which I don't recall.

Don't think of this as "the contract isn't amendable until 2013, 2016, or whenever". Letters of Agreement are common to fix problems with the contract and this Interest-Based Bargaining (IBB) session took place mid-term of the current contract. IBB was actually initiated by the union as a way to fix issues with a couple of problem sections of the contract, but grew in scope as each side saw the opportunity for win/win situations in other sections. Whether it's truly "win/win" is being hotly debated by the pilots as we speak. Some, the FO's namely, potentially get the biggest piece of the pie this time around. In 2005, the sweet spot was a 5-year captain. The largest voting demographic will be the ones getting the smallest pay raise percentage, and perceive having to sacrifice the most, so "it ain't over till it's over".

Would you guys see an inflationary increase for wages annually or would the salary numbers be fixed for 5 years? Certainly the addition of 100 domiciles will be helpful and enough to probably grab many pilots from the other fractionals and the airlines, but what about inflationary pay increases?

What specifically about this contract is objectionable for the senior pilots? Is it that they won't see much of a difference in their pay/benefits, etc? Not enough of a change for them? I can see why the junior pilots would be overjoyed with most of it...

OK, OK, you've tried twice to start an argument. Not taking the bait. Z

That's impossible to say, as everyone's situation and perspective is different. I'm a real senior guy and I don't find anything particularly objectionable about the proposal. But ask 100 other pilots with my seniority and you will get 100 different personal situations and 100 different answers.

It is interesting to note that the changes made in the contract are very much in line with the results of the survey conducted by the union leadership. That correlation alone tells me this thing will probably pass by a pretty good margin.

The numbers are fixed until 2013. Then, in the absence of a new contract, the numbers are adjusted up by cost-of-living each year starting in 2013.

Hi!

I would appreciate a summary of the complete contract proposal. I have seen the pay and basing part of it.

Thanx a ton!

cliff
YIP

PS-I am in the interview pool. IF this passes, AND I'm hired at the interview, I will be a NetJets pilot.

OUCH! Fixed rates for 6 years. That really sucks. I see why NetJets management is offering this to you. They want your pay frozen for 6 years while all the majors take big pay increases. I knew there was some catch to this proposal.

How about just a 3% pay raise each year to offset inflation. If your rates are fixed for 6 years, you are taking about a 3% pay cut each year, or about 20% over the life of the proposal. Sounds pretty bad to me!!

Here are some of the issues cited by the critics, but not all:

1. Retiree heathcare insurance is gone under the new contract. Union leadership says it's not sustainable and would be gone at the end of the current contract anyway.

2. Under certain conditions, a pre-2005 pilot who moves could lose his Home Base privilege and be sucked into the 100 crew bases.

3. The current reserve schedule, which many of the more senior pilots love because they can work it to their advantage, goes away. I'm sure they would enjoy at least the same quality of life with one of the two new schedules, but they simply don't want to change.

4. The captains on the Falcon 2000EZ could actually see a decrease in pay because of the way the aircraft class vs. pay breakdown changed.

5. The length of the contract extension scares many folks. What's decent pay today may not seem that way in 10 years.

6. It's new and I don't really understand it; therefore, I must fear it. (Okay, that's just my read on it, but the Chicken Little syndrome is alive and well)

That might be tough. There's a lot to it. The summary we got was almost 100 pages. Plus, most people wouldn't understand the stuff that changed beyond crew bases and pay, as it all kind of requires a little bit of experience at Netjets. Stuff like scheduling, crew food, scope, sick leave, etc.


Something to shoot for in the next round of negotiations. Baby steps. Plus, you can't overlook the fact that if this passes, then everyone is getting a decent raise, which comes on top of the nice raise we got in 2005 with the current contract. It's a lot more than can be said for any airline right now.


Am I the only one that laughed a little bit when I read that? Are you an airline guy? If so, tell us all how big your PAYCUT was. Something tells me it was more than 3%/year from inflation. I wish the guys/gals at the majors all the best, as a rising tide lifts all boats. But I don't even think all the majors will be around in 6 years. Or, they get their big pay raises, only to give them back with big pay cuts in 3 years. Stability is not a bad thing.;) Alas, only time will tell.

Your pay goes up every year at NetJets just because you have another year under your belt....correct? What exactly is being frozen? Is it a cost of living increase that you are recieving now, that you will not be recieving until 2013 until the new contract is passed? I am not clear on this. Thanks to all those who reply.

I don't know of many airline contracts that give you a longevity and an inflation increase every year. That would certainly be nice!

This IBB proposal doesn't either unless the company extends it til 2016. Then we get both which is nice.

Here is how the pay would go for someone who is a 5 year Capt in 2012 on the 7/7 schedule with an assumed 3% CPI-U adjustment each year as specified in the proposal. These rates only apply if the company extends the agreement til 2016.

2012 $100,408 (5 year Capt - current rate)
2013 $107,041 (6 year Capt)
2014 $114,110 (7 year Capt)
2015 $121,647 (8 year Capt)

I would agree with the above post. Bottom line is that except for about 20-30 people out of 2600+/- everyone gets a raise of at least 10% if not more, and on top of that, some at the top of the food chain will see a signing bonus in the neighborhood of 25k plus a 10k thanks for being here over 15yrs. Basically we get more pay and bases for the new guys. In turn the company gets some scheduling flexibility. As far as being locked in for a few years. This is nothing. Even if this contract expires when it was originally scheduled, there will be a few years a hate and discontent while they sort out the next gem which people will still complain about. Either way, there will be a lot of time between this contract and the next one. With or without this TA. I came from a 16 year pos contract so I am one who would be careful with this, but so far it seems reasonable.

Yes, your pay goes up every year with a seniority based raise. What's frozen until 2013 is the entire payscale.

Say you are a 5 year captain today on 7/7. Your pay is $100,408. In 2012, you will be a 10 year captain. Your pay on 7/7 will be $119,254. So you got a pay raise each year. However, a 5 year captain in 2012 will still be making $100,408. $100,408 today won't buy the same amount of stuff in 2012. The purchasing power of that money and everyone else's money will have been eroded over time by inflation (averages around 3% per year). The previous poster was suggesting that the entire payscale should be adjusted upwards each year by the rate of inflation to fix that problem. That is what happens in 2013 and beyond.

One thing that I've found airline guys to misunderstand is a pay raise vs a CPI increase. Most airlines contracts don't have a CPI increase each year. The adjustment in the pay scales each year is really just a negotiated pay raise spread out over the life of the contract. So if an airline negotiated a 10% pay raise, they don't usually up the all the payscales by 10% the next day. What typically happens is that the raise is metered out over the life of the contract (say 3.33% per year in this case). It makes it seem like it's a CPI raise, when in fact it is nothing more than the pay raise that was negotiated.

Hi!

It looks to me that this contract proposal, overall, is better than any -121 US PAX airline's contract (except maybe AA's).

I hope it is approved by the NetJets' pilots.

cliff
YIP

Thanks for the clarification. With the 100 bases and the pay increase, it seems like a no brainer to me. I would definetly vote for it if I were employed with NetJets and it has convinced me that I want to work for NetJets when I retire from the military. This just doesn't look bad to me.....speaking from my postion only.....obviously.

It will be interesting to see how you guys sort this out. I personally hope it passes and I can get hired by NetJets. ;) This seems like a very nice deal.

What are the max days you could work in a row on the 18-day schedule? It seems as though everyone would want that schedule (known work days/most pay) or am I being naive?

What is an "H-day"? Thanks.

An H-day is a hard day off. It only applies to the current "reserve" schedule. We get four a month and can place them as a set of four or two sets of two. Placing them properly can possibly get you a 7/7 type schedule and get you 21-25 days of vacation when you only use 1 week of actual vacation time. This is one of the things that many reserve pilots love and thus hate about the new proposal. This option is not there and vacation time is reduced.

18-day schedule is usually 7 day max, but during one tour in the 4-month cycle, the company has the option to work you 8 days. This schedule is posted on the 15th of the month prior. There will be PBS, but the company has a really long time to get the program started. 2 years, I think.

Another thing people don't like is the mandated use of the company credit card. This is not a no vote issue by itself, but many feel it is a poke in the eye. A large number of people use the Hilton AMEX to get 5 times the HHonors points. We stay at a lot of Hiltons on the road.