Hawker 800 crash in Owatonna, MN in a Thunderstorm
 

kstp.com - At least 7 dead after plane crash in Owatonna


At least 7 dead after plane crash in Owatonna

EYEWITNESS NEWS has confirmed that at least seven people are dead after a plane crashed during a landing at Owatonna Degner Regional Airport Thursday morning, according to the Federal Aviation Administration.
The corporate jet was reportedly flying from Atlantic City, New Jersey when it crashed near the northwest section of the airport.
According to preliminary FAA reports, the plane is owned by East Coast Jet. The plane was a Hawker 800 series jet, according to Viracon, a glass fabricator company.
Don Pyatt, president of Viracon, said the customers were from "a couple of different companies" who were coming to the glass manufacturing plant to discuss a "major project" in Las Vegas. Pyatt declined to say what companies were involved or what the project was.
Viracon said the victims were scheduled to meet at their Owatonna-based offices, before taking off again for Tennessee.
Severe weather passed through the region earlier in the morning, causing serious damage to structures in the area.
The crash came as a line of storm thunderstorms moved across southern Minnesota, knocking out power lines, snapping trees and damaging agricultural buildings.
In Clara City, about 120 miles northwest of Owatonna, the high winds blew a grain bin and grain conveyor across state Highway 23, knocking down the primary power line to the city.
"We have major, major damage in town," Roger Knapper, Clara City public works emergency management director, told the West Central Tribune of Willmar. "You can look anyplace and there are trees all over the place."
Wind speeds were estimated at 80 miles an hour when the storm hit the small town about 7 a.m.
The storm continued east, hitting Mankato about 8 a.m. with 60-mile-per-hour winds. KTOE-AM reported that some roads were blocked by fallen branches, there were scattered power outages and a VIP tent at the Minnesota Vikings training camp was damaged.
Owatonna is a town of about 20,000 about 60 miles south of the Twin Cities.

I think it was an East Coast Jets flight. My source is flightaware.com

You are correct.

Judging on the debris field seen in pictures and the position of the a/c, it appears to have been moving at a good rate of speed upon impact. With 80mph winds reported and severe tstorms, I hope that the pilots would have known better than to even attempt this landing (obviously).

I'm no expert, but how much would a microburst play a roll in this if that had happened? Or a major wind gust from behind/low-level windshear?

I don't like second guessing pilots without a lot of info, but if the media is correct about the winds and thunderstorms in the area it is hard to understand even attempting to land. As a disclaimer of course remember we are talking about the news media and hard facts...something that is a bit foreign to most of them.

God bless the pilots and the passengers.

I've worked an accident before and I feel also for the people on the accident site. Nothing can prepare you for what you see when a jet hits the ground at a high rate of speed and burns for an hour or so. Not much left of anything recognizable for the jet or people.

Without playing monday morning quarterback these guys were most likely very talented and its hard to believe that they intentionally flew into something like this. They could have very easily been going through a light return on radar. Severe storms nearly always have cyclonic rotation in them ie. tornadoes. However, they are usually horizontal not vertical. Tornadoes also exist mainly in the green returns on the storm. As pilots, where are we always cocked and loaded to aim the aircraft when deviating. Hard to tell what they saw but I hope it wasn't just a race the storm situation. Either way, its tragic.

Very tragic indeed. More facts will make their way out - the media tends to twist facts in a bad way. Time will tell...I'm really curious as to the wx there at the time of landing.

Reports are the storm had largely cleared the area at the time of accident and winds were considerably less than the 80 kt. gusts reported earlier. But that's not to say there still couldn't have been some microbursts or lingering gusts in the wake of the storm passage.

Amazing how fast this got on the net, http://static.cbslocal.com/station/w...unications.mp3

www.kare11.com has some good video.

Sounds like the storm had passed. Aerial footage shows they must have gone around/missed approach. The debris field is past the runway and leading away from it.

Whenever we talk about a pilot who has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgment. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That his judgment was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgment, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose.

-Unknown

crew
 

Well put.

Learguy

The Co-Pilot was a very good friend.

RIP

I second that! Very well put!

My prayers go out to their families!

I had the good fortune of flying with the Captain of that airplane for many years....I worked for East Coast Jets from 03 to 07, and he was my FO for 3 of those years. I can tell you he was an excellent stick and would NEVER drive an airplane into a TS or winds in excess of 70mph. He was also, more importantly, a great person and a dear friend. I ask everyone on this board to refrain from the usual "opinions turned fact" that usually ensues after an accident such as this.

The facts as I know them right now are this....a very nasty line of storms passed over the airport about a half hour prior to their arrival. The winds at the time of the crash were from the south at 5-10 mph. The crew radioed to the ground a few minutes before the crash to inquire about parking and gas, and reported no problems with the a/c. The black box was sent to DC for analysis and we will hopefully get many questions answered from that tape.

There are many folks at ECJ that frequent this board and are dealing with the loss of two friends and colleagues. Out of respect for us and the families of those affected, lets stick to the facts and leave the opinions to the idiots in the press.

Thank you all for your consideration and understanding.

I did a little research after I heard about the accident and after seeing what the WX was at the time they went in, my thought would have been "Boy, I'm glad we weren't here twenty minutes ago, let's shoot this approach."

There but before the grace of God go I.

I heard the ATC recording of the accident. Approach gave them weather info was fine except that they would be in "light precipitation" into the airport. Looks like they caught some windshear on final +-20knots.

I think you need to listen to it again http://static.cbslocal.com/station/w...unications.mp3

I'm struck by one immediately apparent item as you view the video from the helicopter; it doesn't look like there was any fire. I would think that NBAA reserves for a Hawker would be at least 2,000 lbs (300 gallons) of fuel. That would have created a considerable fire especially given how badly the aircraft broke apart near the end of the ground track. This is a puzzler.

To those of you who lost your friends and colleagues, I'm very sad for your loss. Prayers to their families, and to the families of the passengers.

Carl

FWIW,

during one interview, witnesses said the smell of jet fuel was strong at the crash site. I dont know how much fuel it takes to have a strong smell though.

Also, from the helicopter footage, the localizer antenna off the departure end of 30 looked damaged and now the ILS is notamed out. Not saying what happened but just stating hat I have seen on TV.

Also, all of the shear and those reports of construction cones being blown over were on RST ground freq. it seems like they used a scanner to get the ATC tapes.

NTSB: Plane hit antenna off the end of runway

By LIZ FEDOR, Star Tribune
August 2, 2008
The right wing of the Raytheon Hawker 800 jet involved in Thursday's fatal crash at the Owatonna airport hit an antenna about a thousand feet past the end of the runway after the pilot tried to land the plane, a federal official said Saturday.
"The antenna stands about 8 feet high and straddles the width of the runway," said Steven Chealander, a board member for the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the federal agency investigating the crash.
Chealander said a dozen NTSB investigators are remaining in Minnesota, as they continue to gather evidence to help them determine what caused the crash.
He said in an interview that they have recovered a third device -- which monitors the plane's proximity to the ground -- that could give them some additional clues.
But on Saturday he revealed more details about how the crash unfolded.
"We have witness accounts that it did touch down and [the pilot] was trying to land and during the landing roll out, for some reason they made a decision to try to take off and get airborne again," he said.
But the NTSB official said the plane instead ran off the end of the runway, traveled through a grass field and struck an antenna, which is part of the instrument landing system at the Owatonna airport.
"The airplane was still on the ground when it hit that antenna, and the accident sequence began at that point and [the plane] ended up in that cornfield," he said.
The two pilots and six passengers on board the charter flight all died from their crash injuries. The passengers were flying from Atlantic City, N.J., for a business meeting at an Owatonna glass manufacturing company.
There were strong winds and storm systems in southern Minnesota prior to the accident, but Chealander cautioned Saturday that it is too early to reach any conclusions about the accident.
"We are looking at all aspects of the flight, not just focusing on any one thing," he said.

On Monday, NTSB representatives will gather in a lab in Washington D.C. to dissect what was captured on the cockpit voice recorder. Shortly after the crash, they also recovered the flight management computer.
Chealander said Saturday that investigators found a box late Friday afternoon that contains the "enhanced ground proximity warning system." Essentially, it warns pilots about their distance from terrain.
Honeywell manufactured the product. "Honeywell will take the box to one of their laboratories and determine whether or not it has any memory trace or trail in it that we can use," he said.
Staff members from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, who are mapping the crash debris on site, and the Federal Aviation Administration are working with the NTSB. Chealander said three witnesses were interviewed in Minnesota on Friday and another witness was scheduled for an interview on Saturday.
In addition, the NTSB is talking to people on the ground in Atlantic City and in Allentown, Pa., where the pilot crew was based. Information also is being gathered from air traffic controllers and the National Weather Service.
Chealander said he's confident that the NTSB will pinpoint the cause or causes of the crash, but a final report won't be issued for several months. "Within the next week or so, you'll see a preliminary report of what we've found so far," he said. But that report will cite accident facts, not a conclusion about a cause.

Photo of crash site:
http://www.startribune.com/photos/?c...0crash0801.jpg

If anyone cares, the airplane was N818MV.

Minnesota Hawker Crash...the Facts so far
 

I had the opportunity to spend 3 hours at the site with the NTSB as well as the accident invesigator aasigned by the IC.

I will leave the speculation about micro-burst and meso-scale events to the weather experts and relate what I observed. I have no time in this model and will pose specific questions that I hope you can help with.

1) according to an eye witness, the plane touched down in the 1st 3rd of the 5500 ft runway. He cancelled IFR, but we do not know if he was flying the needles, the PAPI or trying to hit the 1st brick.

2) the runway was soaked to the point where the witness observed "major splash" from the tires.

3) at some unknown point, the PIC initiated a go -around attempt

4) the plane crossed the end threshold and began to traverse a 1000 foot wide grass over run that would have been suitable for a Maul. Main and nose wheel tracks were observed to the localizer array. The nose wheel seemed to lift and settle at least once.

5) the right wing impacted the localizer array at about 8ft agl.

6) The ground then drops away and the right wing enters the corn 150 to 200 yards on the other side of a culvert and tumbles

My questions are these:

The fans were 19 years old...how long to spool up from idle to T/O power ?

Flaps are at 85+ degrees for landing. If The PIC calls for flaps at 15...how long does it take before the wing is getting lift and not drag ?

Based on 1/2 full tanks and 8 people and assuming a hydroplane event with full ABS engagement, how far does this bird roll with little or no braking and engines at idle? In other words would a rollout into a 1000 foot soft mud field been survivable or would the inertia have taken them into the culvert ?

Minnesota Hawker Crash...the Facts so far
 

I had the opportunity to spend 3 hours at the site with the NTSB as well as the accident invesigator aasigned by the IC.

I will leave the speculation about micro-burst and meso-scale events to the weather experts and relate what I observed. I have no time in this model and will pose specific questions that I hope you can help with.

1) according to an eye witness, the plane touched down in the 1st 3rd of the 5500 ft runway. He cancelled IFR, but we do not know if he was flying the needles, the PAPI or trying to hit the 1st brick.

2) the runway was soaked to the point where the witness observed "major splash" from the tires.

3) at some unknown point, the PIC initiated a go -around attempt

4) the plane crossed the end threshold and began to traverse a 1000 foot wide grass over run that would have been suitable for a Maul. Main and nose wheel tracks were observed to the localizer array. The nose wheel seemed to lift and settle at least once.

5) the right wing impacted the localizer array at about 8ft agl.

6) The ground then drops away and the right wing enters the corn 150 to 200 yards on the other side of a culvert and tumbles

My questions are these:

The fans were 19 years old...how long to spool up from idle to T/O power ?

Flaps are at 85+ degrees for landing. If The PIC calls for flaps at 15...how long does it take before the wing is getting lift and not drag ?

Based on 1/2 full tanks and 8 people and assuming a hydroplane event with full ABS engagement, how far does this bird roll with little or no braking and engines at idle? In other words would a rollout into a 1000 foot soft mud field been survivable or would the inertia have taken them into the culvert ?

Let me try to answer those questions for you....

The engines will spool relatively quickly, maybe 4-5 seconds from idle to full power, maybe less. These engines had the N1
DEEC's and resonded quickly to full power requests.

Lift dump on landing causes the flas to go to 75 degrees(from what I remember), and a go around on a short runway after lift dump engagement can be tricky. Lift dump traps the flap handle at 45 until the lift dump is disengaged so the fo cannot move the flap handle on a go around attempt until the captain moves the airbrake handle out of lift dump. The flaps travel very quickly from full dump to 15 if everything is done correctly however, and this is purely my opinion as someone with a couple thousand hours in the airplane, the hawker cannot get back up to rotation speed after lift dump is selected on a 5500 ft runway.

Unfortunatly, and this is the part that haunts me everyday, with lift dump selected the aircraft decelerates nicely, similar to thrust reverse at idle, and had the crew simply let the aircraft roll without any braking and shut down the engines, it probably would have settled into the mud at the end of the runway. We dont know right now if there were any other factors in play that caused the rejected landing attempt, so it may not have been this obvious.

Radar track and wx overlay.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...ast/n818mv.jpg

The ATC recording with the + or - 20 kts is from RST that is 20+ miles away.

I don't know anything that has 85 degrees flaps, could it be 85% flaps?

Fli

The hawker landing flap setting if flap 45 degrees, upon landing the capt. goes into "lift dump" this causes the airbrakes to fan out to 85 degrees and the flaps to 75 degrees. Their is a high speed motor which causes it to happen very fast. At this point their is a lot of drag on the airplane. 5500 foot runways are a common occurance in hawkers, however on the 800 their is no published wet runway data. The antiskid system works very good on the airplane. Once liftdump is selected is would be difficult to do a rejected landing, especially if it wasn't briefed prior. The capt and fo would both have to be aware what was going on in order to sucussfully complete the task. even if they did brief it I still don't think it is do able on a 5500ft. field. They would have gotten a config warning horn since the airbrakes were extended and PLA was above mid range. But i'm sure they wouldn't have the reaction time to undo their actions with not much runway left.

DSF

So at what point is this lift dump activated? What if they are on short final and need to do a go around? What if they are just touching down on the runway and encounter a major crosswind? I'm no pilot, yet, but this system sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

The Lift Dump is deployed when the aircraft touches down. The flaps go to about 75 degrees and the top and bottom spoilers go from about 50 degrees to about 80 degrees. This aids in aerodynamic braking.

Lift dump has to be stowed prior to flap retraction.

A dry landing at a a high weight will require about 4,000 of runway. The aircraft can actually be stopped in 60% of this value. If the flight was conducted under FAR135 then an additional 15% of runway would be needed on a wet surface. The Hawker does have non-FAA approved data for wet and contaminated runway conditions in the Flight Manual Suppliments.

So how would one de-activate "Lift Dump". It seems to me that when Max Power or Go Around is initiated the "Lift Dump" retracts the leading and or trailing edges devices and doesnt lockout flap retraction. Not a hawker wizard but that could be a lawsuit in the making.. my 2cents

Lift Dump is achieved simply by taking the airbrake handle over a gate and full aft....so to get out of lift dump you move the handle back over that gate. It is purely mechanical and has nothing to do with full power or idle. The spoilers and flaps will go to lift dump at any time the mains are on the ground. The motor that moves the flaps from 45(landing) to 75(lift dump) is a high speed motor and only requires a few seconds to go from 75 all the way to 15(t.o.). The flap handle can be moved while in lift dump, but will not result in flap movement.

Hydroplaning possible...
 

If you fly jets long enough, you will at least once experience hydroplaning immediately after touchdown (typically right after heavy rain with some threshold amount of standing water that your particular airplane may be sensitive to). In the cast of the Hawker, 3/4 inch seems to be just right. If hydroplaning does occur, braking and directional control may not be possible above 80-90 knots.

The case could then be made for an attempted aborted landing. I have done enough touch-and-gos in jets to know that regardless of [jet] aircraft size, you always need lots of runway (even dry); much more than 5500 feet to do it safely.

HawkerJock, I totally agree with you! That could have been any one of us involved in that unfortunate accident. Like you said, when you've flown jets long enough, at some point throughout the years, you encounter situations that have the potential to get REALLY UGLY! 99.999% of the time, you manage to "get by" just fine, or just get plain lucky, and life goes on, just as it always has. But there's always that ONE time that it could bite you in the arse............and unfortunately that may have been what happened to this crew.

They very well could have made all the right decisions (flying around the worst part of the weather, making a decision to continue to destination after seeing the winds and weather get considerably better, calculating the WET landing distance needed, and so on). Heck, they may have even noted on short final that the runway appeared to have no standing water and might have prudently decided to touch down on the numbers instead of the 1000' markers. The point is, we can all sit here and say to ourselves that "I would have done things differently", or "I would have never done what they did", but it's very easy to play monday-morning quarterback.

Just maybe the WET numbers worked on paper, and just maybe the runway had no standing water or appeared that way, and just maybe they hit the numbers...............at some point things were not working out like the crew had thought, and they were faced with 2 options. Go-around and head to the alternate, or run off the end of the runway. With only seconds to think about that, many of us probably would have attempted exactly what they did.

And please don't keep saying that you would not have been in that situation ever, you're telling me that you've never landed on a wet runway after a storm had passed by---you are full of it!