Legacy Pilots: Flap setting for normal ops?
 

Hey guys. When I flew the ERJ our normal flap setting was 45. A check airman on the Legacy told me (but provided no Embraer documentation) that normal flaps setting on the Legacy was 22. His reasoning was "it makes the plane more stable" at low speeds. While that may be true it still sounds like hogwash.

Comments?

I don't know about being more stable, but many people feel more comfortable with flaps 22 landings.

Our company has stated that it takes about 200-300 more lbs of fuel to do a flaps 45. In my mind, there's not really any reason to do a flaps 45 unless you're worried about runway length. That said, I try to do 1-2 a trip to keep proficient.

Flaps 45 @ ref the a/c always felt mushy to me. Flaps 22 ref felt much more stable. If that helps you...

At tsa you have the option to do 22 or 45. I prefer 22 landings.

Ask the maintenance department at XJT what flap 22 landing does. They used up every spare landing gear in the world with their maneuver of trying to save fuel, now back to 45...

wait...what?!

Don't know what sources you've got, but if you'd look at the actual numbers, flaps 22 landings were just fine for a few months, then had issues, went back to flaps 45, and flaps 45 landings were just fine for a few months, then had issues.

Moral: The troops are good at what the commander inspects.

Has nothing to do with flaps 22 or 45.

What does the book say?

Can't find it anywhere in the books.

What's a "Legacy ERJ" ??? Can't figure it out.

A Legacy is a private/corp verison of a 135

The Legacy is the bizjet version of the ERJ135/145.

Gotcha...if your FOM or whatever you use allows it Flaps 22 approaches/landings are much nicer. Its a poor man's version of having slats!

I think I am going to stick with 45 landings seeing as I prefer the sight picture (reduced pitch attitude), lower speed, less brake wear.

I have never noticed a decreased stability/control/whatever using 45 versus 22.

Remember, brake wear is not that big of an issue given the carbon brakes...higher brake temps=less brake wear

yes we got that memo
Max reverse followed by light, rapid brake applications is key.
anyway 22 is my pref. you can do 160 till short final. with 45 at MGLW you dont get much wiggle room

Well, we try to stay away from Max Rev at XJT because somebody says there's some vibration or stress from the TR's that either the Vertical or horizontal stab doesn't like. Next they'll start telling us to use TR's again because of brake wear. Eagle doesn't even open the buckets.

our book says we can only use them on runways less than 7000 feet with braking action less than good or on wet runways when the braking action is fair or worse...lol...i think that is how they state it? probably should know this...anywho...

unless the runway is dry and long i'll use the brakes but anything less and i'll use idle reverse...if you got them, use them...

i figure using idle reverse and light braking is better than heavy braking or just heavy reverse...

that's my take...

Hard to explain to the FAA why I went off the end of the runway at flaps 22 in an aircraft with flaps that go to 45.......

Because its an approved procedure blessed by the gracious Feds in the good book (FOM).

If you have the performance numbers backing up a 22 landing, theres sholdnt be a problem...

Yep...as long as you have the numbers, there should never be a problem in aviation....we all know everything works out just fine in aviation...

That's a good defense...

Sure, the feds can always find a way to pin it on the pilots. If you run off the runways with flap 22, you probably would have done it with 45...

Another 300 hour Chuck Yeager...

I take that back, most of you probably don't know who Chuck Yeager is....

I would have to say that Chuck Yeager at 300 hours probably knew more about flying than we did at 3,000 hours.

Just got the official word from Embraer. There is no preferred flap setting.

Flaps 22 doesn't feel behind the power curve...much cleaner approach and landing IMHO if you've got the runway to play with...! And yes, it does save gobs of fuel.

Carbon brakes last longer on the E145 by over half if you heat them up. Anotherwords, don't use reverse and if you want to really do what EMB recommends then don't even pop the doors as the $600,000 cost of TR reverse door overhauls comes in to play. The engines are on condition, the TR doors are not.

Using carbon brakes incorrectly will reduce brake life by half. Carbon brakes build a film around them when they're heated which protects the brakes as they're applied. If you use max reverse then lightly apply the brakes then the carbon brakes will develop a chaffing or particle that will be very abrasive on the brakes and wears them out twice as fast plus you just wore out your TR doors to boot. So if you see those things in the amber, calm down. Just don't blast off with them in the amber.

They figured this out from the European operators that didn't have TR installed on their 145s having brakes that lasted twice as long as their American counterparts at XJT and AE that had TRs. Thats when they changed the books to say heat up the brakes.

Flaps are your choice, I used 45 when the runway was a factor and 22 when I wanted a better shot at a greaser but I've seen that thing grease when it shouldn't have and thump when it shouldn't have and just the opposite. Land with power, don't land with power, land 22, don't land 22, land and blah blah blah. Just do something before it hits the ground.

And it'll be pilot error when you're sitting in the weeds.

Easiest way to get crews to stop using thrust reverses, simply ensure that more than half your fleet isn't equipped with em. I'm so glad winter's almost over.

The Legacy is operated a bit differently than the airline 145:
far less cycles, shorter runways. According to one of our mechanics, TR overhaul is not determined by brake usage. TR overhaul is in fact on condition and covered by warranty on our Legacy.

As far as flaps, I agree with your comments. I see no noticeable difference in the handling of the plane with 22 versus 45, I just prefer the sight picture with 45, and I figure why only use 22 if Embraer gave you 45.

First, the engines on a Legacy will probably never be overhauled if its flown as sparingly as some Legacys are. You are right the TRs are not overhauled on brake usage and they are OC just like the engines.

You are probably on the Rolls Royce Corporate Care program if overhauls are covered. Corporate Care is essential in my view despite being $10-$13K a month because there is nothing cheap about repairing one of those engines.