Cessna 421
 

Has anyone flown/used a Cessna 421 airplane. I'm interested in its reliability, operating costs, maintenance issues. How do the passengers like them? How do you like them from a pilots point of view.

421
 

I flew a 421 C, a 1980 model with the trailing link landing gear.

HITS:
Passengers: Passengers loved it. The props turned at a quiet 1800 RPM in cruise. Combined with the pressurized cabin, it was very quiet. Cessna's "wide oval cabin" design made for a lot of room in the club seating.
The long nose baggage area was spacious.

Pilots: The 421 is a great "fingertip" airplane that is a joy to hand fly. I did part 135 checkrides in the airplane, and manuvers such as steep turns were a snap. The trailing link gear is great. The big rudder is great in a crosswind. The cockpit is wide and comfortable, the panel well laid out. The airplane I flew even had factory lumbar supports in the seats. Good instrument airplane.

Performance: The 421 is pretty quick. TAS ranged from 200 kts at 10,000 to 220 in the high teens. I planned a fuel burn of 50 GPH using 75 degrees rich of peak.

CONCERNS:

Payload: The 421 can be CG sensitive. I sometimes carried a 50 pound bag of sand in the nose if I was flying single pilot with two people in the back and no baggage. While the 421 has 6 seats in the back, many people have removed the most rear forward facing one. Even if you load that many people in the airplane and keep it in CG, you are not going far. It also gets crowded back there. I think the 4 seat club filled with adults is enough. Passengers may try to fill up the cabin, but you cant let them most of the time. A lot of 421s have gained weight since new also. The book's performance numbers start at 5600lbs gross. My airplane weighed 5400 empty.

Maintenance: I once saw a tv show about a zoo, where the comment was made that the Golden Eagle cost more to keep than any other bird they had. I laughed at the the well suited name Cessna had given the 421. The airplane does cost a lot to maintain.

Don't skip any maintenance. It is pay now or pay later--pay a lot later. The airplane is known for the engines.


Operating: Take care of those engines. We kept them warm (no shock cool), and had relatively good luck. We took a set of GTISOs to TBO and only replaced two cylinders along the way. Plan a descent into the trip. On a 200NM trip (one hour), I seldom went above 10000 MSL here in the east.
While the 421 has 375 hp per side. It is not a rocket ship on one engine at all. Always keep that in mind if you need climb performance out of an airport.

I never had to go to sim training for the 421, but a lot of people are required to. SimCom in Orlando has a 421 program that I hear is good. I also heard that Flight Safety Cessna in Wichita has a good 400 series school.

The airplane flys great, and makes a good impression to passengers. It is not a load hauling beast, and OEI performance is critical. It can be a very expensive airplane to maintain.

We operated one for three years and I agree with the above post.
I will add this:
Passengers loved it.
It did fly well with two or three pax and 1/2 load of fuel. At gross it was a PIG. On a hot day, at gross, 600 fpm is all both those engines will give. VERY under powered.
When we got it two different older pilots, with 421 experience, ask if we could make 3 trips without maintenance. I said not yet. They both said you never will. They were right.

These two websites have some good information on twin Cessna's

Jerry Temple Aviation

The Twin Cessna Flyer

B model and the C models with trailing link gear are a pleasure to fly and land. Straight leg C models can be a pain to make a good landing. Fuel management in the C's easy. Gotta keep track in the B's. In general, plan a 700fpm climb to keep the engines fairly cool (about 30" and 1900 RPM). Plan your descents. The GTSIO-520's need TLC all the time. As stated before, can be very CG sensitive, especially on a long flight with full passengers as CG moves back as fuel burns off. Still one of my favorite planes. Just glad I don't have to pay for the maintenance!

Cannot disagree with a word you said.

Just to stress:

1. They are a joy to fly. Quiet too due to the geared engines.

2. Do not discount the earlier "B" models, as those tips tanks are like huge winglets, although the fuel system on them is one only the engineer who designed it could love, especially if you have the nacelle tanks too.

3. Yes, you can get the engines to TBO, but not if you want to fly at max "book" figures. If you can deal with 190 kts or so in the mid teens or so you'll be fine. However, if you push them at FL250 all the time watch out.

4. Fuel burn is a minimum of 40 GPH on the B model.

Figure $400-500 per hour to operate one these days.

Keep in mind that if they built them new today that they would be probably a $2 million+ plane.

Hey Lou, still working on Flight Simulator stuff?

anyways,

I found this video with good information on the aircraft. Mind you, its of a particular airplane but its still useful info.
421025V 1974 Cessna 421B

I flight plan the 421 generally at 205 kts. Upper teens to low 20's. Anything above that you're pushing it. My boss, who at 83 still actively flies the 421, among other aircraft, has 20,000 hrs in the 421. He probably knows more about the airplane than anyone else in the country. He can get that fuel burn down around 38gph, carefully. Safe to flight plan at 40gph, 50gph to be conservative.

I have heard some 421 operators who used to fair well with the engines have had trouble with newer overhauled GTSIOs. Anyone here know anything.

The B model is more than a pig on one engine, it is nearly suicidal!

Ditto to all that has been said.

Our company's luck with engines was not as good as the other folks that have replied. We were happy getting 80-90% of TBO while replacing fewer than half the jugs. The reason: our mission demanded we drive the engines hard (at or near max charted power) and our flights were short (mostly 40 minute legs). It didn't help that we flew in the desert alot.

Stage cooling cannot be emphasized enough for the 421. If you don't stage cool, you will buy a bunch of jugs. Once I had an oil line blow during climb out. I chose to shut it down (didn't like the idea of oil getting dumped onto a red hot turbocharger). All six jugs cracked due to shock cooling. $9000 worth of jugs for a $6 length of hose.

And if you want the turbos to last, be sure to give them time to cool after landing. I think Cessna recommended five minutes at idle; that may be a bit much, but definitely give them at least three minutes. (If I remember correctly, shutting them down hot would cause the oil in the turbo to cook, making sludge, that shortened bearing life)

I was not impressed with the hydraulic air conditioning. But again, half the year, temps on the ramps were triple digit.

I've owned a late model 421B since 2000. Great airplane. Nice to fly and the PAX do like the quiet cabin. GTSIO-520 engines are not a problem if you treat them with respect. Old guys can take them to TBO with no major problems. Young throttle jocks will be doing overhauls at 500 hours or less! Smooth actions are the key words. Figure around $500/hour total at 2010 prices.

Just to clarify, the B model does not have trailing link gear. And trust me when I say this as a former owner/operator of multiple Cessna twins,,, the "C" model of any Cessna twin is the way to go. Worth paying a bit of a premium. From engines, to fuel system, to gear, to GC, etc.

Learguy

Save your money and buy the 414 Ram V chancellor we are selling!

It has TSIOL-550A engines and is rated at 350 horsepower per side. Burns 38 or so gph in cruise and does an easy 205 knots true in the low twentys at 75%.

It is not geared so you can forget that issue and it is liquid cooled.

Not to mention with all of the mods and winglets it has a VMC that is lower than stall.

The best part...we are practically giving it away!

great thread,all the notes on care and feeding,and doggy single engine performance remind me of the sweet 3 !

How much, and is it listed on Controller? N-number. I have a person that may be interested.

There is a reason that you are practically giving it away. Call RAM they may be interested in converting it back to air cooled engines and **** canning those voyager engines. I flew Swayze's airplane back into service after he had his landing accident several years ago. The did a full de-mate on it. What a pile of crap. They should have totaled the airplane instead of fixing it. We couldn't go for more than two hours in it without needing maintenance. At the time I was managing and flying a 1980 421C model. It made me appreciate just how much better a well taken care of 421 was.

So far the airplane has been very reliable and a great performer in the 500 or so hours its been around us. We have normal routine mx but so far nothing associated with being liquid cooled.

Its days are coming to a close though, I am ferrying it to its new owner on Wed.

I have about 500 hours in both B and C models flying 135 charter out of MI. I never had a problem with them. BABY the engines. If I remember right (it's been about 5 years) Start pulling back power at 25 miles to 23 RPM, then 20 miles out to 20-21 RPM, 15 miles at 18RPM and so forth. I believe you should be landing over the numbers with about 17RPM. I also had ballast in the nose as well.
Oh be careful with ice. The leading edge on the elevator is too thin for the boot. They are prone to tail stalls. :eek:

Hope this helps.

If you have that many hours in the 421, then you would know it's manifold pressure you are changing (reduction), not RPM. Props generally stay set somewhere from 1700-1900 RPM all the time. Only time you would increase RPM (albeit temporarily) would be if you were flying high, very cold, for a long time. You have to exercise the hubs on the props with warm oil occasionally so they will respond when necessary.:cool:

To be honest with you I haven't really exercised the props at a cold, high altitude. :eek: Always wondered what the passengers would think?

Come to think about it.. maybe rightly or wrongly I was always taught to just leave the props (RPM) alone in the 421 even on the descent until below blue line.. or maybe not even at all:eek:

I really loved flying that airplane - even for a short time. Nice and smooth engines - although... call me a rookie... but you can certainly tell if one boosts slightly ahead of the other.

No 421 time, but I have about 1000 hours in a 402 (same plane, just unpressurized with non-geared engines).

The tail is very prone to stalling in the flare with a load of ice. Don't try to squeak one in if you have a load of ice back there. Just land flat and call it good.

Exercising the props at altitude with passengers...no biggie. Done it all winter. Just be smooth about it.

Its obvious that the poster meant MP instead of RPM. The numbers were correct for the distances selected.

I know that. After flying for 37 years, can't I be a little facetious? Cause a little trouble?:p

That's a whole lotta 421 time.

Yes, I meant MP instead of RPM. Jeez, excuse me for living.:rolleyes::o

You shouldn't have to. There's a path for warm oil to cycle into the prop hubs without changing prop pitch.

-mini

421
 

The 421 is great and reliable plane in the right hands. Complaints about reliability, engines, safety can always be traced back to poor and inadequate maintenance, poor or incompetent pilot skills.

ReCessna 421.... I know this is very old post, but if you are still interested in the operation of the 421, I would be happy to advise as I am currently operating one (4years) - and give good insight into operating the 421. It is an awesome bird, that can not be duplicated today for less than about $1.5 mill. With sensible maintenance and excellent pilot training this pane is the best bang for the buck in its category.

Manhattan,

I thank you for your help on this "old post." I will have some questions for you in the near future.

Again, thanks.

Anyone ever have an accessory drive come apart and take the engine out with it? The 404 I had been flying had it happen on a 200 hour engine. Thankfully it was covered on the RAM warranty. Just wondering if that was common at all.

Never had a gearbox come apart, although I've blown jugs off of Continentals. I flew a 421A years ago, straight wing, nice airplane. Iirc, the propellers would drive the engines on power reduction, so I never reduced the power below 20" until over the fence.

Did anyone ever feather the engine and then restart it in flight? That is a major no no with the GTSIO engines. The MX manual says that if the engine has over 200 (?) hours on it, and is feathered and restarted in flight it must be overhauled. It creates some horrible stresses on the gear reduction.