dracir1

Interesting analogy. It would seem that most people aren’t reliant on baseball card values to feed their family.

Let me see if I can simplify this for you since it seems to be such a difficult concept to grasp...

The airline industry is unique in many ways - one which includes seniority. A pilot gains seniority at and ONLY at his/her airline. We all know this. Keep that in mind as you continue...

F9 used to be one of the HIGHEST paid pilot groups in the US. Then, a series of unfortunate events beset the country and affected the pay of those pilots to be one of the lowest paid. But, seniority continued even though the possibility of trying to get hired elsewhere was non-existent. Basically, many pilots were faced with 2 choices: change careers or accept less pay with the promise of more later.

Oh yes, it wasn’t a HOPE of more pay later it was a negotiated promise. LOA 67 - if you haven’t heard of it go look it up.

Now, after several years of profitability, the time to adhere to the promise of LOA 67 has come. However, the owners didn’t fulfill that promise. Not only that, have outrigt LIED to a federal mediator and were FOUND GUILTY of not bargaining in good faith.

So, these pilots who continue to show up, many of whom have been with the company longer than the present ownership group, are supposed to leave and start over? Wouldn’t it just make more sense for them - and everyone else who works here - to just fight for what was promised? Especially when you consider the market? Especially when you see EVERY other airline has passed us by in pay, scope, vacation and most other contract rules? Especially when it was YOU who worked so hard to build the company into the success that it is today? Build the empire and leave it for someone else to prosper from? Really?

How much $ and seniority (and schedule and everything else) does a 12 year F9 captain stand to lose by quitting? How many other legacy airlines are jumping at the chance of hiring older CAs from other airlines? How could you propose such a stupid suggestion?

As you have already admitted, pilot union pay negotiations are a giant game of leapfrog. Who aims to jump and land at the middle of the pack?

NWSteeringArmer

It was an overly simplistic view... but if you truly hate it here, there are tons of other jobs... the big 3... pretty much every person I know that has gone to 2 job fairs has gotten a call from United... Delta has open houses and companies that increase the score on your app for a better shot to get a call... I know American is tough to get a call from... Southwest... if you volunteer to do anything at your airline or in your community, they’ll usually give you a shot... especially if you’ve attended job fairs and they get to meet you... Jetblue and Alaska are also hiring... my point is, with some effort, you can get a call... or you can stand by your principles, accept your current station in life and pray that the TA looks anything like you dreamed it would...

I’m all for getting the most out of this next contract... I don’t disagree that we’re woefully underpaid... I don’t disagree that there’s no reason we shouldn’t get paid what other airbus pilots make... I don’t disagree that indigo could double our pay rates right now and still print money... maybe it’s 13 years of airlining that has jaded my attitude so badly, I just expect to get **** on... I just don’t think a lot of people expectations are going to be met... but that’s why we all get a vote... everyone has to decide if this is good for them, their families, their career and the industry as a whole...

NWSteeringArmer

I don’t disagree with that... and I totally get that you’re frustrated as all hell with this... I am too... but if indigo has continually bargained in bad faith and they’ve used loa 67 as TP and they don’t show up to sessions and they don’t give their employees the resources to be successful, what makes you think we’ll lead the industry in anything except being late and airplanes getting broken by inept ground crews?!

If Delta gets a TA, say in 2 years, and their 320 captains top out at $325, then our topped out captains make half just on pay rates alone... if we vote down a TA in the next year, do you think it’s even a little realistic that our topped out captains would get a 100% pay increase?? Or put it like this, Jetblue gets a TA, and their captains top out at say $270 DOS... do you think it’s reasonable that our captains would get an over $100 an hour increase in one contract?? I just think it’s be short sighted to vote down a TA with reasonable insurance, scope, work rules and pay rates because we’re still behind...

Then let me ask you... if we vote down a TA and the economy goes TU... now we can’t even get the crap we’re asking for today... my point is, we’re going to have to take a bite of the sandwich before we get the whole sandwich...

motorboatin

Well said! The union has mentioned several times during the Pub events, RGS lunches, etc., that all of these top airlines have gone through multiple negotiations to get where they are from the times of the concessionary days. Our pilot group voted in favor of concessions and the time lines associated with them, long ago. We now have our chance to start righting the ship and as our friend above stated in a different way, Rome was built brick by brick, as will be our new world contract. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to come out of this thing making $260/hr. However, if we come out retaining most of the items in our contract that make it bearable to work at this godforsaken airline, I'll be happy making $240 because $166 is highway robbery for what we do.

dracir1

This is a very good point because it highlights the risk associated with waiting to get released and getting the absolute most possible...

The reason why F9 is on a concessionary contract in the first place is due to the very actions you described about the economy. There’s really no defense to that and even if we were getting $300 / hr, the first thing Indigo would do upon the economy going bad would be to renegotiate back to concessions. And, while those negotiations drug out, we’d be getting our rate, until we either accepted the concessions or shut down. If the company shut down, it shouldn’t be the first company to do so as pretty much every other airline would all be suffering the same plight.


I would much rather take the chance of possibly making more than being too scared to try and guaranteeing I make less. Of course, the economy/industry could tank at any time but it’s rarely at an all time high like right now. We’ll probably never get the chance to get as much improvement as we can now. We’ve GOT to take that risk. We NEED the greatest amount of increase right now or we’ll FOREVER be at the bottom. If we don’t get a big leap now, why would it be more likely to get it next go round?

The company CAN afford it and doing so would just be bringing us back up to where everyone else is. They’ve had a window of cheap labor and cashed in. Enough is enough. It’s time for them to put their big boy pants on and start paying like everyone else...

And I don’t expect the company to give it to us. I expect to have to TAKE it. I expect the NMB to consider what Indigo has done to this workforce and allow us to be released to self-help. In fact, all of the underhanded, dishonest and openly disrespectful things they’ve done actually play in our favor. None of what I’m screaming works without that.

dracir1

I agree. If the language is right, I’m good with $240. But that better be some DAYUM good language and I seriously doubt Indigo is going to match my criteria for retirement, vacation, scheduling, reserve rules, min day, trip/duty rig, scope, medical insurance percentage, retro and hotels.

Otherwise, as I’ve mentioned for the umpteenth time....the union works FOR you. They are trying their hardest to give you what you say you want. YOU call the shots for you. If they fall short, then you tell them by voting no. It’s that simple. We all pay a ton in dues so I have no truck sending them back to the table asking for more. When the company rejects (and we need to be sure we ask for enough that they will), we ask for release. Then, we walk. And our offer goes UP every day we’re out.

We’re so far behind, we can’t afford to build brick by brick as the others have. We need a major construction project right now and THEN we build brick by brick. We need a “ONE TIME catch up with everyone else” contract. The only way to do that is to negotiate it as harshly as we have to. There’s really just no way around it. Spirit got a 45% increase while under a TRO without the benefit of our LOA 67 bargaining chip - and they didn’t have to get released. What do you suppose we can get if we go all the way?

This is not rocket science. It just requires a pilot group with the hairy cojones to do it.

PowerMan

We aren't asking for it in one contract. LOA 67 is effectively one pay raise, these negotiations are another.
Our union fought hard in LOA 67 arbitration, and won. Stop discounting it (and yourself in the process!).

Kilroy

What’s the status of the contract negotiations. Any idea what the pay rates will go up to?

doz4dllrs

"Don't like it, leave!" This is the biggest bull**** argument ever. If Southwest heeded your advice do you think they would be where they are today? You have to take what's yours because they sure as hell aren't going to hand it to you.

Every airline that has anything worthwhile for fought for it. F9 is no different.

UNSUBSCRIBE

Lol, Im going to enjoy an easy 250k/year as a junior CA, 4 days off, a DC retirment , LTD if I need it, ability to drop if I choose while you continue to battle management that is a helluva lot more ruthless than ours.

Good luck, you’re gonna need it