Frontier Negotiations Discussion
08-10-2017, 02:01 PM
#211
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 118
A merger would essentially end both our perspective negotiations and require the new negotiation of a joint collective bargaining agreement JCBA (think Alaska/Virgin) if I'm not mistaken. Perfect way for management to kick the can down the road for who knows how many more years
08-10-2017, 02:14 PM
#212
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Position: Da Bus, Left
Posts: 1,510
Originally Posted by shreddykreuger
A merger would essentially end both our perspective negotiations and require the new negotiation of a joint collective bargaining agreement JCBA (think Alaska/Virgin) if I'm not mistaken. Perfect way for management to kick the can down the road for who knows how many more years
Hope you guys are pushing for retro if you're at that point in negotiations. Best of luck to all of us!
08-10-2017, 02:25 PM
#213
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Another spirit guys here. As we all know from experience anything can happen but it's important that we all don't negotiate or vote (given the chance) on new collective bargaining agreements do a possible unfounded fear of a merger and starting the process over together before we ratify new individual agreements.
A merger announcement and a start fresh approach to negotiations would kill recruitment which is our best leverage at this point. There is a lot of sentiment from pilots in the market that contracts at our carriers are not far in the future, even if it's not true and even with that recruitment of quality applicants remains difficult. As we all know there is no shortage of quality pilots just a shortage of them willing to work for half the compensation. I feel like a start over announcement would stop us from even getting the mediocre applicants we are getting now and attrition would surge.
I think even being "iced" by the NMB might have similar affects.
I don't put anything past these greedy reactionary management groups but starting over negotiations in a merger would spell game over for recruitment and their growth plans.
We are professional pilots and we will not settle for working at a discount. Don't settle for less! ULCC may be a thing but how they make the revenue is up to them. ULCC pilot is not a thing it's a made up classification to make you expect less. Industry standard is reasonable, affordable, and still very profitable.
SCOPE, PAY, RETIREMENT, RETRO, PROFIT SHARING, LTD. we get it this cycle or we get it never. We are not building for the next cycle. We get it now!
A merger announcement and a start fresh approach to negotiations would kill recruitment which is our best leverage at this point. There is a lot of sentiment from pilots in the market that contracts at our carriers are not far in the future, even if it's not true and even with that recruitment of quality applicants remains difficult. As we all know there is no shortage of quality pilots just a shortage of them willing to work for half the compensation. I feel like a start over announcement would stop us from even getting the mediocre applicants we are getting now and attrition would surge.
I think even being "iced" by the NMB might have similar affects.
I don't put anything past these greedy reactionary management groups but starting over negotiations in a merger would spell game over for recruitment and their growth plans.
We are professional pilots and we will not settle for working at a discount. Don't settle for less! ULCC may be a thing but how they make the revenue is up to them. ULCC pilot is not a thing it's a made up classification to make you expect less. Industry standard is reasonable, affordable, and still very profitable.
SCOPE, PAY, RETIREMENT, RETRO, PROFIT SHARING, LTD. we get it this cycle or we get it never. We are not building for the next cycle. We get it now!
08-10-2017, 02:27 PM
#214
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,378
Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
Another spirit guys here. As we all know from experience anything can happen but it's important that we all don't negotiate or vote (given the chance) on new collective bargaining agreements do a possible unfounded fear of a merger and starting the process over together before we ratify new individual agreements.
A merger announcement and a start fresh approach to negotiations would kill recruitment which is our best leverage at this point. There is a lot of sentiment from pilots in the market that contracts at our carriers are not far in the future, even if it's not true and even with that recruitment of quality applicants remains difficult. As we all know there is no shortage of quality pilots just a shortage of them willing to work for half the compensation. I feel like a start over announcement would stop us from even getting the mediocre applicants we are getting now and attrition would surge.
I think even being "iced" by the NMB might have similar affects.
I don't put anything past these greedy reactionary management groups but starting over negotiations in a merger would spell game over for recruitment and their growth plans.
We are professional pilots and we will not settle for working at a discount. Don't settle for less! ULCC may be a thing but how they make the revenue is up to them. ULCC pilot is not a thing it's a made up classification to make you expect less. Industry standard is reasonable, affordable, and still very profitable.
SCOPE, PAY, RETIREMENT, RETRO, PROFIT SHARING, LTD. we get it this cycle or we get it never. We are not building for the next cycle. We get it now!
A merger announcement and a start fresh approach to negotiations would kill recruitment which is our best leverage at this point. There is a lot of sentiment from pilots in the market that contracts at our carriers are not far in the future, even if it's not true and even with that recruitment of quality applicants remains difficult. As we all know there is no shortage of quality pilots just a shortage of them willing to work for half the compensation. I feel like a start over announcement would stop us from even getting the mediocre applicants we are getting now and attrition would surge.
I think even being "iced" by the NMB might have similar affects.
I don't put anything past these greedy reactionary management groups but starting over negotiations in a merger would spell game over for recruitment and their growth plans.
We are professional pilots and we will not settle for working at a discount. Don't settle for less! ULCC may be a thing but how they make the revenue is up to them. ULCC pilot is not a thing it's a made up classification to make you expect less. Industry standard is reasonable, affordable, and still very profitable.
SCOPE, PAY, RETIREMENT, RETRO, PROFIT SHARING, LTD. we get it this cycle or we get it never. We are not building for the next cycle. We get it now!
08-10-2017, 04:07 PM
#215
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 386
Originally Posted by TurboFanMan
Hence the purchase of the new XL Corporate HQ in Denver?
Spirit has been up front about it from the beginning, and manages the expectations of their customers. You pay $29 and get a seat; everything else costs extra. F9 sprung that concept on the customer base without guidance or education. They alienated the "loyal" customers and helped SWA get a firm toehold in Denver.
My non-aviation friends HATE the perceived nickel and diming "Bait and switch" they endure booking on F9. Even when I explain "The Works" package they like the concept, but ask why it isn't front and center next to the cheap fare that lured them to the site. I'm certain that Indigo has run the model to the penny, and if the current model makes them a cent more they will stick with it.
It was easy to explain away Potter, Tate, Christie and the old guard with an old saying, "Never ascribe to evil what can be more easily explained by incompetence". Now we're seeing what happens when we have competent management that is just plain greedy and mean.
We don't seem to have a problem filling planes and making profit though. So what do I know...
Long long long long long time, Silk :-(
08-10-2017, 05:35 PM
#216
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,378
Originally Posted by F9 Driver
Could be. I'd think we would adopt the Spirit brand since the F9 ULCC transition was handled so poorly that a fresh start under Spirit's brand would help in my opinion.
Spirit has been up front about it from the beginning, and manages the expectations of their customers. You pay $29 and get a seat; everything else costs extra. F9 sprung that concept on the customer base without guidance or education. They alienated the "loyal" customers and helped SWA get a firm toehold in Denver.
My non-aviation friends HATE the perceived nickel and diming "Bait and switch" they endure booking on F9. Even when I explain "The Works" package they like the concept, but ask why it isn't front and center next to the cheap fare that lured them to the site. I'm certain that Indigo has run the model to the penny, and if the current model makes them a cent more they will stick with it.
It was easy to explain away Potter, Tate, Christie and the old guard with an old saying, "Never ascribe to evil what can be more easily explained by incompetence". Now we're seeing what happens when we have competent management that is just plain greedy and mean.
We don't seem to have a problem filling planes and making profit though. So what do I know...
Long long long long long time, Silk :-(
Spirit has been up front about it from the beginning, and manages the expectations of their customers. You pay $29 and get a seat; everything else costs extra. F9 sprung that concept on the customer base without guidance or education. They alienated the "loyal" customers and helped SWA get a firm toehold in Denver.
My non-aviation friends HATE the perceived nickel and diming "Bait and switch" they endure booking on F9. Even when I explain "The Works" package they like the concept, but ask why it isn't front and center next to the cheap fare that lured them to the site. I'm certain that Indigo has run the model to the penny, and if the current model makes them a cent more they will stick with it.
It was easy to explain away Potter, Tate, Christie and the old guard with an old saying, "Never ascribe to evil what can be more easily explained by incompetence". Now we're seeing what happens when we have competent management that is just plain greedy and mean.
We don't seem to have a problem filling planes and making profit though. So what do I know...
Long long long long long time, Silk :-(
08-10-2017, 07:34 PM
#217
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Position: CRJ-200 CA
Posts: 434
Originally Posted by Tranquility
Spirit guy here, kicking the can further just fattens my retro check even more.... No retro? No vote from me....
Hope you guys are pushing for retro if you're at that point in negotiations. Best of luck to all of us!
Hope you guys are pushing for retro if you're at that point in negotiations. Best of luck to all of us!
08-10-2017, 07:55 PM
#218
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 497
Originally Posted by NWSteeringArmer
So you vote no... they renegotiate for another year and no retro... just puts more cash in their pockets... there's something going on that's gonna screw us... it's pretty obvious at this point
08-10-2017, 08:00 PM
#219
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 282
Originally Posted by F9 Driver
Could be. I'd think we would adopt the Spirit brand since the F9 ULCC transition was handled so poorly that a fresh start under Spirit's brand would help in my opinion.
Spirit has been up front about it from the beginning, and manages the expectations of their customers. You pay $29 and get a seat; everything else costs extra. F9 sprung that concept on the customer base without guidance or education. They alienated the "loyal" customers and helped SWA get a firm toehold in Denver.
My non-aviation friends HATE the perceived nickel and diming "Bait and switch" they endure booking on F9. Even when I explain "The Works" package they like the concept, but ask why it isn't front and center next to the cheap fare that lured them to the site. I'm certain that Indigo has run the model to the penny, and if the current model makes them a cent more they will stick with it.
It was easy to explain away Potter, Tate, Christie and the old guard with an old saying, "Never ascribe to evil what can be more easily explained by incompetence". Now we're seeing what happens when we have competent management that is just plain greedy and mean.
We don't seem to have a problem filling planes and making profit though. So what do I know...
Long long long long long time, Silk :-(
Spirit has been up front about it from the beginning, and manages the expectations of their customers. You pay $29 and get a seat; everything else costs extra. F9 sprung that concept on the customer base without guidance or education. They alienated the "loyal" customers and helped SWA get a firm toehold in Denver.
My non-aviation friends HATE the perceived nickel and diming "Bait and switch" they endure booking on F9. Even when I explain "The Works" package they like the concept, but ask why it isn't front and center next to the cheap fare that lured them to the site. I'm certain that Indigo has run the model to the penny, and if the current model makes them a cent more they will stick with it.
It was easy to explain away Potter, Tate, Christie and the old guard with an old saying, "Never ascribe to evil what can be more easily explained by incompetence". Now we're seeing what happens when we have competent management that is just plain greedy and mean.
We don't seem to have a problem filling planes and making profit though. So what do I know...
Long long long long long time, Silk :-(
08-10-2017, 08:02 PM
#220
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 386
Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
Another spirit guys here. As we all know from experience anything can happen but it's important that we all don't negotiate or vote (given the chance) on new collective bargaining agreements do a possible unfounded fear of a merger and starting the process over together before we ratify new individual agreements.
A merger announcement and a start fresh approach to negotiations would kill recruitment which is our best leverage at this point. There is a lot of sentiment from pilots in the market that contracts at our carriers are not far in the future, even if it's not true and even with that recruitment of quality applicants remains difficult. As we all know there is no shortage of quality pilots just a shortage of them willing to work for half the compensation. I feel like a start over announcement would stop us from even getting the mediocre applicants we are getting now and attrition would surge.
I think even being "iced" by the NMB might have similar affects.
I don't put anything past these greedy reactionary management groups but starting over negotiations in a merger would spell game over for recruitment and their growth plans.
We are professional pilots and we will not settle for working at a discount. Don't settle for less! ULCC may be a thing but how they make the revenue is up to them. ULCC pilot is not a thing it's a made up classification to make you expect less. Industry standard is reasonable, affordable, and still very profitable.
SCOPE, PAY, RETIREMENT, RETRO, PROFIT SHARING, LTD. we get it this cycle or we get it never. We are not building for the next cycle. We get it now!
A merger announcement and a start fresh approach to negotiations would kill recruitment which is our best leverage at this point. There is a lot of sentiment from pilots in the market that contracts at our carriers are not far in the future, even if it's not true and even with that recruitment of quality applicants remains difficult. As we all know there is no shortage of quality pilots just a shortage of them willing to work for half the compensation. I feel like a start over announcement would stop us from even getting the mediocre applicants we are getting now and attrition would surge.
I think even being "iced" by the NMB might have similar affects.
I don't put anything past these greedy reactionary management groups but starting over negotiations in a merger would spell game over for recruitment and their growth plans.
We are professional pilots and we will not settle for working at a discount. Don't settle for less! ULCC may be a thing but how they make the revenue is up to them. ULCC pilot is not a thing it's a made up classification to make you expect less. Industry standard is reasonable, affordable, and still very profitable.
SCOPE, PAY, RETIREMENT, RETRO, PROFIT SHARING, LTD. we get it this cycle or we get it never. We are not building for the next cycle. We get it now!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
