LAS or DEN Basing
 

Commuting is going to be in my future no matter what base I fly out of being that I live in SLC and do not plan to move for family reasons. What insight can anyone give on commuting either to Denver or Las Vegas out of SLC. I realize it's going to be painful regardless while on reserve but is one better than the other? There seems to be quite a few flights to either base on a daily basis, but trying to figure which base would offer the best QOL in the long run is where I'd like some insight. Upgrade time and time to holding a line seems to favor LAS.

How long on reserve and how difficult to same day commute with F9 work rules?

Thanks in advance

Denver will offer more in the way of open time for aggressive bidding. Las Vegas seems to be going fairly junior. I'm not sure what the time to hold a line is in either base but given that Vegas is still growing it may be faster there. Keep in mind that with Vegas, if you can't hold day turns you're almost assured to see a minimum of 1 redeye per trip, maybe more. Depending on the SLC commute, trips are commutable at both ends if you can find a flight home after about 10pm LAS local time.

My guess is that as a new FO, you might be better off in Denver and then take the LAS upgrade which will be much faster than denver upgrade. Denver is so much larger, you will have more scheduling flexibility there.

I think it's a very easy commute. Welcome!

Line
 

How long does it take to get any line out of Denver or Las Vegas?

For January the junior relief line holder in LAS was an August hire. DEN junior relief line holder was April hire.

DISCLAIMER: prior performance may not be indicative of future results.

I assume since you asked the question you are not yet on property. Be warned that 2018 is going to be a slow year...contract nowhere close to being done, a net gain of (I think) 5 airplanes, haven’t had an upgrade bid in many months, etc. I would bet the wait gets longer.

Thanks for the reply, that is good insight. Understand that 2018 is going to be somewhat stagnant for growth in net aircraft gain but hopefully that will change in 2019.

For what it's worth, they've been saying "explosive growth is just around the corner" since at least 2015. It keeps getting pushed back. Not saying it won't happen (as I expect it will at some point), but come with eyes wide open.

2019 is not much better. This place isn't planned to grow big time until 2020 and beyond. 2018-2019 are the years of swapping out the old birds for the new birds. However attrition may increase helping you move up a bit.

Nope. 2019 is a big growth year.

Can'tStayAway has got it right. They have been promising explosive growth since 2015. It just hasn't happened yet. It keeps getting pushed back. Will it happen in 2019? Maybe, maybe not.

Yes, there are new deliveries. But an equal number of lease returns have been leaving. Each time that happens, the company pockets approximately $20 million (the difference between what the company buys the aircraft for and what it sells it to a leasing company for). It then leases the new aircraft with rates that have to reflect the higher price.

Franke and Biffle are promising big growth and fast upgrades at the same time they are dragging out a new contract absolutely as long as they can. Somehow the growth just keeps getting pushed back, and the contract never happens.

Come with your eyes wide open.

Even better, don’t come at all.

I've posted the actual delivery and lease return schedule on this site. I've explained how to find it, so you can see the numbers for your self. It's really not that difficult, just basic addition and subtraction.

The growth that the company has been talking about has happened. The airline grows in more ways than fleet numbers. When you replace a 319 with a 150 seats with a 321 with 230 seats, that's significant growth. When you operate 4 additional block hours per day per airplane, that's significant. Just not from your perspective.

The fleet only grows a small amount in 2018, about 6, due to a significant number of lease returns. In 2019 the lease returns go way down and the deliveries stay strong. 2019 is a big growth year. I'll go get the numbers again if I have to.

Block Hours Flown:

2013: 195,000
2014: 223,000
2015: 259,000
2016: 279,000
Consider that these numbers are being flown with larger airplanes.

Aircraft Delivery Schedule

2017: 17
2018: 16
2019: 18
2020: 18
2021: 13
134 more airplanes to follow, starting in 2021.

Aircraft lease returns:
2018: 13
2019: 2
2020: 3
2021: 1
2022: 4

Wow....that’s GREAT! How do you and the rest of the folks in the Chief Pilots office plan to hire enough to staff that growth?

The best way to summarize the future of growth and contract status is that they both will change “sometime” in the future. We have no real clue when. Indigo knows the timeline but they will never share any accurate info with their beloved employees. If present fleet and contract aren’t better than where you are at, you should stay there. Big mistake expecting rapid growth or a new contract anytime soon.

I don't work in the CPO. However, I suspect the new contract will fix hiring issues. I understand your frustration, I am dying for a pay raise too. I'm just presenting information. I don't work in the CPO, I don't do interviews, I don't do career fairs. I work 70 to 75 hours and go home.

Thanks Aero for taking the time again to post the numbers. I've seen your fleet growth numbers before but not the block hours expectations.

I hope for everyone's sake that contract negotiations don't drag on for years as they have thus far. I realize it's in Indigo's best interest to drag out the inevitable as it shows higher profit each quarter, which equals higher valuation for the company. It's strictly business.

When will it happen, who knows, that's anyone's guess.

No one gives a shiiit about that type of growth... some might argue that flying an extra 80 people around for free is the opposite of growth... we have more responsibility and no extra compensation... it’s growth for the company, sure but an extra 80 seats doesn’t put 10 people in an upgrade class... and yes they do utilize the airplanes more, but you may notice as that has happened our, schedules have gotten crappier and crappier... why are you talking about aircraft utilization and seat growth?? Who cares

Absolutely. I agree. I was responding to someone above who make a comment about how the company has promised growth, and they hadn't seen it. I was simply explaining that the growth the company keeps talking about isn't the kind that effects us much. A while back Biffle said that Frontier was going to grow 20% in Denver. He grew that 20% by adding larger airplanes and more seats to the planes. Growth in the eyes of the accounting dept, not the quality of life of the pilots.

I agree 100% that we should be compensated for the additional passengers we are carrying. A Frontier A321 holds more people that a United 767 and 787.

Frontier is the 2nd most profitable airline in the country. As we replace old A319s with new A320NEOs, our profit margins will rise higher. I guarantee you the company will grow by leaps and bounds. Its a decade long process though.

So what is your source of information?

So when we start picketing the job fairs....I’m sure you will be there with your orange lanyard telling everyone what a great place Frontier is to work?

Your job is not to present information. It’s the company’s. Let’s focus on getting a contract here and not recruiting pilots. Enough is enough!

I attended both picketing events. Did you? I froze my fingers off at DIA and am glad I was there. I would gladly picket at a job fair if that's in the works. I don't have a job on here, I just have a thing for truth and facts, something that helps people make educated choices. I don't believe in disinformation campaigns.

Our first year pay is 37 an hour, we don't pay for housing during training and we have a 2 year training contract. It's embarrassing! Every one thinking of coming here needs to know the truth, and right now, our contract is in the hands of the NMB, not these forums.

Block hours came from the S1 filed with the SEC.

Aircraft lease return dates can be found on the company website in the mtx section under 'active fleet data'

The delivery schedule I got from the Program Manager. It's also available online from airline industry news sites that track orders, deliveries and such.

I find this post to be my observation, too. This should be a sticky.

Delta has a SLC base

Delta didn't offer an interview so is not even in this discussion. A common comment on the Frontier threads is "stay away from Frontier." Well, why are you still here? If I were to guess, no one else has offered you an interview or you wouldn't be here. Stop with the profound recommendations that are not options. Like another APC member posted. "My favorite major airline is the one that offered me a job."

Skywest is based in SLC too and offered an interview. Are they better than Frontier? I don't think so. The future at Skywest is a a guaranteed CRJ job with no upgrade to Captain in SLC for at least 10 years. Look at their pay scale and tell me they are a better option. At Frontier, you're flying an airbus and there WILL eventually be a new contract. As long as there is a contract within 10 years, I am WAY further ahead going with Frontier.

I started this thread to ask which base would be a better commute to/from SLC. Seems like a simple question and thank those who responded with applicable answers.

DEN offers more frequency, but more competition. I usually get on WN and DL, any regional is hit or miss. I’ve been doing SLC to DEN for some time and I have always made it. Early flights going to DEN and really late flights to SLC. Check your PM.

Thanks SFA320 for the positive response. Sent you a PM