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Voting no...👎

Old 05-26-2018, 02:26 PM
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Based on substandard hourly ASK rates, which I said 2 years ago were low, the substandard LTD, plus the *happy* attitude as evidenced in the last Co. response. mark me down as a no, a big no, nada, zip. A big thanks to the Negotiators, you must want to take a shower after every interaction with them. However, ALPA’s insistence that we ask for reasonable rates is killing us. Please don’t song and dance me about our slightly higher monthly min.
No, no, no, vote it down by %90+ and I’ll wait. I AM NOT GOING TO BE LAST AGAIN! Carry on....

Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 05-27-2018 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 05-26-2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DC7C View Post
Based on substandard hourly ASK rates, which I said 2 years ago were low, the substandard LTD, plus the * attitude as evidenced in the last Co. response. mark me down as a no, a big no, nada, zip. A big thanks to the Negotiators, you must want to take a shower after every interaction with them. However, ALPA’s insistence that we ask for reasonable rates is killing us. Please don’t song and dance me about our slightly higher monthly min.
No, no, no, vote it down by %90+ and I’ll wait. I AM NOT GOING TO BE LAST AGAIN! Carry on....
Maybe we should just wait and see when we actually have something to vote on?

Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 05-27-2018 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 05-26-2018, 03:18 PM
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You obviously are entitled to vote the way you want, and are welcome to vent frustration here. However, I think this attitude isn't helpful. And as I've said many times, don't vote until you have something to vote on.

The NC has a plan. They have a plan and have stuck to it. Everyone knew that negotiating big raises with Indigo was going to be exceptionally difficult. This is likely the most difficult negotiation possible; asking for truly huge raises and asking for them from a management team that seems to only have 1 goal, low cost. This is going to be hard. The NC knows this, and they had a plan of attack. The plan was to ask for a completely reasonable contract and push thru the RLA process as quickly as possible. Remember, we got a mediator faster than probably anyone ever has. We have followed every rule, been a perfectly behaved pilot group and the NC has asked for average across the board. The goal is to get a deal or get released.

If you think we can up our ask and get released, you are wrong. We are doing everything right to get released. The process is long and painful, but we are doing all the right things. If the NC upps the ask now, we will lose the chance to get released. Plain and simple.

I believe we will come thru this process with one of the largest raises in history. Don't start shooting it down now. We need to stay smart, stay clean and let the union push us thru the RLA process.

Attend a road show. The union isn't going to present us a TA until it's worth accepting. I understand people are upset by what they have seen, but no one has seen the full picture. We are going to keep hard line bidding and not go PBS. That's worth a fair amount, right? Don't vote yet.
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Old 05-26-2018, 03:59 PM
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Ok, I’ve been a big advocate of making sure we have an above industry standard contract for a while. I’ve also mentioned our initial ask was too low. That was NOT just salary - it was everything.

But even I know not to make my mind up before we even have a hint of what we’ll be getting. To me, the objective is above industry standard. Period. Whenever that happens in the process (first offer, 3rd, 6th, 128th...). Doesn’t matter.
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Old 05-26-2018, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Aero1900 View Post
I believe we will come thru this process with one of the largest raises in history.
This is "sell job" language.

I don't think you meant to be like that, but this is prime example of how to lower expectations. I do understand the gravity of getting such a large raise in the eyes of the NMB and so forth, but were SO far behind, it's going to take the biggest raise ever to get on the street that has the ball park on it.

As soon as I hear this phrase from someone at a road show, I'm just going to assume they caved, and move on to the next topic.
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Old 05-26-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingR6 View Post
This is "sell job" language.

I don't think you meant to be like that, but this is prime example of how to lower expectations. I do understand the gravity of getting such a large raise in the eyes of the NMB and so forth, but were SO far behind, it's going to take the biggest raise ever to get on the street that has the ball park on it.

As soon as I hear this phrase from someone at a road show, I'm just going to assume they caved, and move on to the next topic.
^^^^Yes.

The LOA 67 rates proposed were supposed to negate the ability to use this “largest raise” argument. We were to get to the street with the ballpark after LOA 67 resolution then ballpark with the AIP. Never happened as Indigo presented the 1% upward pay adjustment.

We needed approximately 25% just to get us started. They offered 1%.

Sometimes it seems like we are trying to make a deal with some meth-head on Craigslist through anonymous texts. “Hey bro, I see you’re asking $5000 for your car. Will you take $250?”
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Old 05-26-2018, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingR6 View Post
This is "sell job" language.

I don't think you meant to be like that, but this is prime example of how to lower expectations. I do understand the gravity of getting such a large raise in the eyes of the NMB and so forth, but were SO far behind, it's going to take the biggest raise ever to get on the street that has the ball park on it.

As soon as I hear this phrase from someone at a road show, I'm just going to assume they caved, and move on to the next topic.
I totally get why you would say that. But I am not trying to sell the contract that we don't even have yet. I've been arguing to not vote until we have something to vote on.

What i was trying to say, is that this contract was always going to be a very tough fight. We are asking for some of the biggest pay raises ever. . ..... And we absolutely deserve it!

This will be a tough fight, but I believe in our NC and their plan. We need to trust them and let them push us through the process. Upping our ask would backfire. They are trying to get us released. We can't sabotage our position by upping the ask. The NC has a plan. It's just a long, tough fight.
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Old 05-26-2018, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by PowerMan View Post
^^^^Yes.

The LOA 67 rates proposed were supposed to negate the ability to use this “largest raise” argument. We were to get to the street with the ballpark after LOA 67 resolution then ballpark with the AIP. Never happened as Indigo presented the 1% upward pay adjustment.

We needed approximately 25% just to get us started. They offered 1%.

Sometimes it seems like we are trying to make a deal with some meth-head on Craigslist through anonymous texts. “Hey bro, I see you’re asking $5000 for your car. Will you take $250?”
I agree. This is an extremely tough negotiation.
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Old 05-26-2018, 05:54 PM
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Well, you can't vote on anything now, so chill the **** out.
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Old 05-26-2018, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Aero1900 View Post
I totally get why you would say that. But I am not trying to sell the contract that we don't even have yet. I've been arguing to not vote until we have something to vote on.
I didn't think you were trying to sell anything at all, I don't mean to attack you personally. However, I have heard that kinda phraseology from union folk, and its maddening/depressing.

I also don't mean to beat the drum of the OP and vow to vote down an AIP, because we have nothing in front of us. I fully intend on reading the entire thing, then judging it.

BUT, we have info out there on what has been agreed to, and it's bad. Plain and simple. People are just mad about that info so far. Could it turn around, sure. Is it likely, who knows.
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