Management Assault
 

Why don’t we use some “RV” money and go to district court over managements violations of status quo/past practices

I've been wondering the exact same thing.

Because the courts generally refer you back to arbitration under the RLA since the company claims the issue is a "major" dispute requiring arbitration rather than a simple breach of contract.




And everyone in this industry needs to know, what Frontier management is allowed to get away with sets the stage for the whole industry:

https://www.heraldnet.com/business/f...rline-strikes/

Exactly.

Which is why I think the United and Delta MEC should be more vocal about getting Frontier a contract ASAP.

Who do you think paid for the Winnebago? F9 MEC has been given support by UAL ALPA.

First, by my math ALPA collects enough each month from the F9 pilots alone to afford several RV’s. So while, yes, dues from the ALPA pot pay for things like that please don’t insinuate we are freeloading on the backs of United and Delta.

I’m not talking financial support anyway. How many United or Delta MEC members have picketed on our behalf? Why hasnt ALPA directed the other MEC’s to write letters to the NMB expressing their disdain for how F9 management has handled the process to date and lobby to bring us “into the pattern” before they themselves enter into negotiations? In fact, I think Munoz and Kirby should be lobbying for us too. The longer the NMB lets Indigo get a labor discount the longer United is at a competitive disadvantage.

Excardog is spot on...Indigo/F9 is writing the book that Kirby/United will play by. It’s also in your best interest that we finish this up sooner than later. We all appreciate the “support” (akin to thoughts and prayers) but I’m looking for ALPA to finally put some teeth into this fight.

Good points all around.

as a Widget guy, what can I do to help?

With the exception of the LOA 67 picket, where no OAL pilots were invited and the flash picket, which was totally last minute, there have been numerous pilots from other ALPA carriers, SWAPA, APA as well as non union carriers at all of our pickets.
Teeth?? Telling people to Fu€k off, yelling and screaming and making idle threats might feel good, but it doesn’t advance the ball. ALPA is working hard for us. It is a long drawn out frustrating process, especially when the NMB is rewarding the company’s abysmal behavior, but this is the process. The company’s recent behavior reeks of desperation. They are their own worst enemy and when this is all said and done, we will come out on top. Stay strong and unified!

You can just bet the mgmnt groups who’s CBA’s are coming amendable are taking detailed notes on what indigo is getting away with so their actions can be not only mirrored but expanded upon...

The difference is those airlines need to keep the facade of amiable labor relations intact in order to protect their public image which limits how much they can get away with. Unfortunately Indigo doesn’t have that problem.

Tough to tell on an Internet forum but I take this as a genuine question, so thanks for asking.

What can anybody do? Nothing rogue or lone-wolf style. Our union has been clear that only doing things under the guidance of the MEC is advisable. So what does that leave? Call your MEC and push for a coordinated letter writing campaign. I feel a letter from each ALPA MEC (especially the heavy hitters like Delta and United) to the NMB (or POTUS?) couldn’t hurt. A letter that emphasizes that we all do the same job, fly the same airplanes, and are all part of the same union so we all deserve to be bargained with in good faith. A letter from Delta or United saying even they think it’s F9’s turn would emphasize how insane this whole negotiation has been.

And Kirby, I’m sure you read my posts :), the NMB is picking F9 as the winner right now. You want to compete with us but you can’t. Especially when F9 has such a huge labor discount. Why don’t you call your Senators, Congressmen, lobbyists, etc and get them to force the NMB to poop or get off the pot?

Moneybrains pointed out (correctly) that telling people to F— Off doesn’t help. So anything done needs to be organized and come from the top. I’m not on the F9 MEC and maybe they have a reason why this is a bad idea. But sitting idly for 3 months without a peep from the NMB is unreasonable.

I don't think it works like that for a publicly traded company. Labor disputes look more like mgmt failure than success.
The first thing Oscar did was extend the United deal with nice raises.
If you were a broker responsible for investing granny's money as a fiduciary you wouldn't buy into a disgruntled company with labor problems.

Indigo is trying to IPO their company and doesn't want to give the pilots its "equity" before the sell, so you have additionally motivated oweners who are trying to "cash out" on your backs.

I think hopefully after the Facebook IPO no reputable bank will touch Frontier to valuate an IPO price until a labor deal is done. Hopefully this sinks in and puts pressure on Indigo. On the other hand, the industry and company are doing well enough tokeep it is as a cash cow with a super good deal on Airbus labor.

I’ll ask my LEC reps to see what they can do

Two things: 1) Franke is NOT going to sell Frontier Airlines and 2) the NMB is NOT going to release the pilots to strike.

On an IPO... just do some fact finding and Google Bill Franke's outlook on the future of the ULCC model and you'll see there is no intention of spinning off F9 or any of his airlines.

On a strike... The NMB is appointed by the President. This President is business friendly, not labor friendly. He has no problem firing anybody who doesn't tow the line. Kyle Fortson and Gerald Fauth both know where their bread is buttered. While F9 ALPA does benefit from having Linda Puchala in the mix, she is the minority vote.

Just apply Occam's Razor to the aforementioned questions and the answers are pretty simple. Just follow the money.

Yep, it sucks, but it's reality. Plan accordingly.

Bingo
.............

....... Yup

With no vacations
It would be nice for all of the line holders to pick up ALL of the open time for AUG giving the 72 DEN reserves a MONTH off..... with pay ;)

We can dream.... We have already seen a slow down this month since last with open trips. For a relief line guy that was kicked back to reserve I believe/hope I won’t be working that much. Company panics and is reactive vs proactive. I dont think many will be dropping down to the 50hrs anymore now that the VJAs stay within the top 10% and now only average 8hrs a day.

Ya I know...
But it would “send quite a message” of unity if they had to pay 72 X 2 pilots to sit at home and get paid......

Either you are a management troll or an idiot who wants to appear in the next company letter from the attorneys....

Just an “idiot” I guess.......
“THEY” built 72 reserves and only 19 vac relief....

Not much vacation drop when vacations are canceled.

There are ways to get time off when needed .......

You and I are talking about different things.

I'll be curious to see how they overreact when they pay all the reserves to sit at home and get paid 75 hours for not flying.

It would be comical if it didn't come at the expense of our vacations.

I hope that's the case. Not sure if we have as much flying in Aug since I believe school starts back up about the 3rd week of Aug. So hopefully there will be alot of DEN capt's being paid $166.68/hr to stay at home!

If you've ever met Biffle this is a classic over re-action by him. Back when he used to come talk to our recurrent classes he would go from 1 shade of pink to beat red in the face with anger almost foaming at the mouth!!

I’d imagine all vacations for the forseable future are toast. Just watch.

Yeah. I'm kind of counting on it as well.

Here's a question.
In recent history F9 has paid for charter companies (SunCountry, Southern) to fly their planes and pilots with F9 passengers. This was to cover F9 schedules.
So, Why has mgmt cancelled vacations when they can just pay these charters to fly the uncovered schedules?

Simple. They hate employees and will screw them over every chance they get. Pure vindictiveness. Nothing more.

I agree. I believe the August vacation cancellation was just to **** us off. Let's be real; did they really need to cancel 140 pilots vacations? No way. How about cancel 25, that would have lightened up the open time. But 140!? It was a pure F U to us

That was more an aircraft shortage than a pilot shortage. They did that when planes were out of service or Airbus was behind on deliveries.

Haven’t more planes been out of service this summer than planned?

Not sure, but the company is cheap and not willing to give flying to another carrier unless it’s an absolute last resort. If they have aircraft and pilots to fly them, they will do everything within their legal power to complete flights in house before giving away revenue. Secondly, ALPA has defended these actions in the past stating the company was not in violation of our contract when exercising this option due to extenuating circumstances. Not that it would have stopped them but I don’t think the company would have received ALPA’s blessing this summer and I’m sure ALPA had a few legal avenues they could have pursued to make it less lucrative for the company if a contract violation did occur.