Laughable Bravado
11-09-2018, 09:59 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 180
Laughable Bravado
So all you people on here screaming NO! You say you deserve better, you say, now all of a sudden, JetBlue is your new metric for comparison. You say; I want top rates, and I want LTD till I’m 65, and I want four weeks of vacation four times a year, and I want profit sharing, and I want more just because I’m a keyboard warrior and everyone else is saying it so I will too...peacocking and tailfeathering but guess what! The only thing more laugahable than your (hard, solid, strong, unified, definitive, major, or whatever other adjective you think makes) No sound more threatening, is the fact that you say you’re willing to continue at rates that are $100 below where you should be. You think magically that all of a sudden the union will be able to get you an extra $20 hour and make all your other gripes go away? Problem is, most here have had very unreasonable expectations. All gains and no changes. Thats not bargaining folks...read a book and do some reasearch. Most of the genius mathematicians on here use hypothetical numbers on napkins or spreadsheets that don’t even function. But gawddammnit, they think it’s real, so it must be!!!
Guess what, percentages matter, improvements matter, and your fragile egos do not. You are now making less than Allegiant and SunCountry! That's embarrassing. We are a budget carrier. We are budget pilots. We don’t work for the most exclusive and highly desirable airline out there. We work for a run-of-the-mill crappy outfit. Yes, we fly the Airbus and right now we fly it for max $166/hour. And you’re going to scoff at the ability to do it shortly for $245/hr?? That’s $80 and likely over $80,000/year, not including the fact that your 12% comes without having to sacrifice 10% of your hourly rate.
You want Delta, or JetBlue, or whoever else?? Go get hired there! Fact is, most of you that are trying, that can’t get hired elsewhere, likely will not. The world is a cold and dark place. You ever heard of not looking a gift horse in the mouth?? Honestly, I’m sorry you feel that you’ve been wronged or screwed by your union. Again, simple fact, they know more than we do. They will live and breathe this contract with us. They know the NMB will do nothing to help us get anything more than more unproductive sessions. There will be no strike! Don’t believe me, read some books, do some research as to what politically motivates people in DC. Who sides with labor?? LABOR. And labor doesn’t let labor go to self-help.
Take yourselves down from the self-righteously imposed pedestal and take a look at the reality of this situation. MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS! Is it everything we wanted? well No! Of course it’s not. But it puts me in the ballpark of where I need to be.
Guess what, percentages matter, improvements matter, and your fragile egos do not. You are now making less than Allegiant and SunCountry! That's embarrassing. We are a budget carrier. We are budget pilots. We don’t work for the most exclusive and highly desirable airline out there. We work for a run-of-the-mill crappy outfit. Yes, we fly the Airbus and right now we fly it for max $166/hour. And you’re going to scoff at the ability to do it shortly for $245/hr?? That’s $80 and likely over $80,000/year, not including the fact that your 12% comes without having to sacrifice 10% of your hourly rate.
You want Delta, or JetBlue, or whoever else?? Go get hired there! Fact is, most of you that are trying, that can’t get hired elsewhere, likely will not. The world is a cold and dark place. You ever heard of not looking a gift horse in the mouth?? Honestly, I’m sorry you feel that you’ve been wronged or screwed by your union. Again, simple fact, they know more than we do. They will live and breathe this contract with us. They know the NMB will do nothing to help us get anything more than more unproductive sessions. There will be no strike! Don’t believe me, read some books, do some research as to what politically motivates people in DC. Who sides with labor?? LABOR. And labor doesn’t let labor go to self-help.
Take yourselves down from the self-righteously imposed pedestal and take a look at the reality of this situation. MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS! Is it everything we wanted? well No! Of course it’s not. But it puts me in the ballpark of where I need to be.
Last edited by motorboatin; 11-09-2018 at 10:16 PM.
11-09-2018, 10:22 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,345
Originally Posted by motorboatin
So all you people on here screaming NO! You say you deserve better, you say, now all of a sudden, JetBlue is your new metric for comparison. You say; I want top rates, and I want LTD till I’m 65, and I want four weeks of vacation four times a year, and I want profit sharing, and I want more just because I’m a keyboard warrior and everyone else is saying it so I will too...peacocking and tailfeathering but guess what! The only thing more laugahable than your (hard, solid, strong, unified, definitive, major, or whatever other adjective you think makes) No sound more threatening, is the fact that you say you’re willing to continue at rates that are $100 below where you should be. You think magically that all of a sudden the union will be able to get you an extra $20 hour and make all your other gripes go away? Problem is, most here have had very unreasonable expectations. All gains and no changes. Thats not bargaining folks...read a book and do some reasearch. Most of the genius mathematicians on here use hypothetical numbers on napkins or spreadsheets that don’t even function. But gawddammnit, they think it’s real, so it must be!!!
Guess what, percentages matter, improvements matter, and your fragile egos do not. You are now making less than Allegiant and SunCountry! That's embarrassing. We are a budget carrier. We are budget pilots. We don’t work for the most exclusive and highly desirable airline out there. We work for a run-of-the-mill crappy outfit. Yes, we fly the Airbus and right now we fly it for max $166/hour. And you’re going to scoff at the ability to do it shortly for $245/hr?? That’s $80 and likely over $80,000/year, not including the fact that your 12% comes without having to sacrifice 10% of your hourly rate.
You want Delta, or JetBlue, or whoever else?? Go get hired there! Fact is, most of you that are trying, that can’t get hired elsewhere, likely will not. The world is a cold and dark place. You ever heard of not looking a gift horse in the mouth?? Honestly, I’m sorry you feel that you’ve been wronged or screwed by your union. Again, simple fact, they know more than we do. They will live and breathe this contract with us. They know the NMB will do nothing to help us get anything more than more unproductive sessions. There will be no strike! Don’t believe me, read some books, do some research as to what politically motivates people in DC. Who sides with labor?? LABOR. And labor doesn’t let labor go to self-help.
Take yourselves down from your self-righteously imposed pedestal and take a look at the reality of this situation. MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS! Is it everything we wanted? well No! Of course it’s not. But it puts me in the ballpark of where I need to be.
Guess what, percentages matter, improvements matter, and your fragile egos do not. You are now making less than Allegiant and SunCountry! That's embarrassing. We are a budget carrier. We are budget pilots. We don’t work for the most exclusive and highly desirable airline out there. We work for a run-of-the-mill crappy outfit. Yes, we fly the Airbus and right now we fly it for max $166/hour. And you’re going to scoff at the ability to do it shortly for $245/hr?? That’s $80 and likely over $80,000/year, not including the fact that your 12% comes without having to sacrifice 10% of your hourly rate.
You want Delta, or JetBlue, or whoever else?? Go get hired there! Fact is, most of you that are trying, that can’t get hired elsewhere, likely will not. The world is a cold and dark place. You ever heard of not looking a gift horse in the mouth?? Honestly, I’m sorry you feel that you’ve been wronged or screwed by your union. Again, simple fact, they know more than we do. They will live and breathe this contract with us. They know the NMB will do nothing to help us get anything more than more unproductive sessions. There will be no strike! Don’t believe me, read some books, do some research as to what politically motivates people in DC. Who sides with labor?? LABOR. And labor doesn’t let labor go to self-help.
Take yourselves down from your self-righteously imposed pedestal and take a look at the reality of this situation. MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS! Is it everything we wanted? well No! Of course it’s not. But it puts me in the ballpark of where I need to be.
Let's say you're taxi driver. Yellow cab. You make $15 / hr and work the night schedule (because that's the schedule your company needs you to work). You've been at Yellow Cab for 10 years. You have friends who work for other cab companies - Speedy Cab, Golden Transit, Executive Limo Inc, etc. They work during the day time, in the same city and in the same type of car. Yet, Speedy Cab drivers make $25 / hr. Golden makes $28.50. And Executive Limo makes $30. Some of your friends have been with their companies for a shorter time than you. To boot, they have cheaper health care costs, better disability and job protection/security.
You've applied to these companies but they won't hire you (for whatever reason). And even if they did, you know you'd have to start out at the bottom of the pay scale - which is $6 / hr - and work your way back up. You ask your boss for a raise. He has been promising you one for years now. When he finally calls you into his office, he offers you $24 / hr but mentions the company is moving toward a new scheduling system that will still have you work nights but might result in you losing out on some vacation. You don't really get much in terms of improvements to health care, disability or job security.
Do you take it and be happy?
If so, I guess we're just different people. Expectation managment is real and I refuse to voluntarily accept less than I feel I'm worth.
11-10-2018, 02:51 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 191
Originally Posted by motorboatin
So all you people on here screaming NO! You say you deserve better, you say, now all of a sudden, JetBlue is your new metric for comparison. You say; I want top rates, and I want LTD till I’m 65, and I want four weeks of vacation four times a year, and I want profit sharing, and I want more just because I’m a keyboard warrior and everyone else is saying it so I will too...peacocking and tailfeathering but guess what! The only thing more laugahable than your (hard, solid, strong, unified, definitive, major, or whatever other adjective you think makes) No sound more threatening, is the fact that you say you’re willing to continue at rates that are $100 below where you should be. You think magically that all of a sudden the union will be able to get you an extra $20 hour and make all your other gripes go away? Problem is, most here have had very unreasonable expectations. All gains and no changes. Thats not bargaining folks...read a book and do some reasearch. Most of the genius mathematicians on here use hypothetical numbers on napkins or spreadsheets that don’t even function. But gawddammnit, they think it’s real, so it must be!!!
Guess what, percentages matter, improvements matter, and your fragile egos do not. You are now making less than Allegiant and SunCountry! That's embarrassing. We are a budget carrier. We are budget pilots. We don’t work for the most exclusive and highly desirable airline out there. We work for a run-of-the-mill crappy outfit. Yes, we fly the Airbus and right now we fly it for max $166/hour. And you’re going to scoff at the ability to do it shortly for $245/hr?? That’s $80 and likely over $80,000/year, not including the fact that your 12% comes without having to sacrifice 10% of your hourly rate.
You want Delta, or JetBlue, or whoever else?? Go get hired there! Fact is, most of you that are trying, that can’t get hired elsewhere, likely will not. The world is a cold and dark place. You ever heard of not looking a gift horse in the mouth?? Honestly, I’m sorry you feel that you’ve been wronged or screwed by your union. Again, simple fact, they know more than we do. They will live and breathe this contract with us. They know the NMB will do nothing to help us get anything more than more unproductive sessions. There will be no strike! Don’t believe me, read some books, do some research as to what politically motivates people in DC. Who sides with labor?? LABOR. And labor doesn’t let labor go to self-help.
Take yourselves down from the self-righteously imposed pedestal and take a look at the reality of this situation. MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS! Is it everything we wanted? well No! Of course it’s not. But it puts me in the ballpark of where I need to be.
Guess what, percentages matter, improvements matter, and your fragile egos do not. You are now making less than Allegiant and SunCountry! That's embarrassing. We are a budget carrier. We are budget pilots. We don’t work for the most exclusive and highly desirable airline out there. We work for a run-of-the-mill crappy outfit. Yes, we fly the Airbus and right now we fly it for max $166/hour. And you’re going to scoff at the ability to do it shortly for $245/hr?? That’s $80 and likely over $80,000/year, not including the fact that your 12% comes without having to sacrifice 10% of your hourly rate.
You want Delta, or JetBlue, or whoever else?? Go get hired there! Fact is, most of you that are trying, that can’t get hired elsewhere, likely will not. The world is a cold and dark place. You ever heard of not looking a gift horse in the mouth?? Honestly, I’m sorry you feel that you’ve been wronged or screwed by your union. Again, simple fact, they know more than we do. They will live and breathe this contract with us. They know the NMB will do nothing to help us get anything more than more unproductive sessions. There will be no strike! Don’t believe me, read some books, do some research as to what politically motivates people in DC. Who sides with labor?? LABOR. And labor doesn’t let labor go to self-help.
Take yourselves down from the self-righteously imposed pedestal and take a look at the reality of this situation. MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS! Is it everything we wanted? well No! Of course it’s not. But it puts me in the ballpark of where I need to be.
11-10-2018, 03:06 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 124
Motorboatin,
Did you ever do a SLC overnight when we were staying at the Red Lion? Did you ever experience waiting 20 minutes for the hotel shuttle, and then have a Southwest crew come out 2 minutes before the van showed up and have the van driver tell you that he was required to take them first, because it was in their contract?
If yes, did you willingly step aside and happily wait another 20 minutes because you were just a ‘budget pilot’?
If no, do you believe you should always have to wait until every Southwest pilot is delivered to the hotel before you get a ride?
My point, in the game of airline pilot contracts, you are worth what you negotiate. Your self worth is hauntingly low and is putting the rest of your fellow pilots in a really bad spot. Dont drag us down with you.
Did you ever do a SLC overnight when we were staying at the Red Lion? Did you ever experience waiting 20 minutes for the hotel shuttle, and then have a Southwest crew come out 2 minutes before the van showed up and have the van driver tell you that he was required to take them first, because it was in their contract?
If yes, did you willingly step aside and happily wait another 20 minutes because you were just a ‘budget pilot’?
If no, do you believe you should always have to wait until every Southwest pilot is delivered to the hotel before you get a ride?
My point, in the game of airline pilot contracts, you are worth what you negotiate. Your self worth is hauntingly low and is putting the rest of your fellow pilots in a really bad spot. Dont drag us down with you.
11-10-2018, 03:08 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2018
Position: FL
Posts: 375
Originally Posted by Need a real job
The rest of us value ourselves with other airbus pilots.
I haven't decided one way or another, but tanking this deal over a few $ is dumb. I will look at the overall package and decide.
But frankly, I don't want to make $140/hr for the next 2 years FOR THE POSSIBILITY I can get a few dollars more.
Have you asked yourselves what happens when the economy tanks and we don't have this deal sealed up?
11-10-2018, 03:11 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2018
Position: FL
Posts: 375
Originally Posted by Harry Canyon
Motorboatin,
Did you ever do a SLC overnight when we were staying at the Red Lion? Did you ever experience waiting 20 minutes for the hotel shuttle, and then have a Southwest crew come out 2 minutes before the van showed up and have the van driver tell you that he was required to take them first, because it was in their contract?
Did you ever do a SLC overnight when we were staying at the Red Lion? Did you ever experience waiting 20 minutes for the hotel shuttle, and then have a Southwest crew come out 2 minutes before the van showed up and have the van driver tell you that he was required to take them first, because it was in their contract?
BTW, cab after 40 minutes from block in.... How do you expect to vote on a new contract when you clearly don't know the one we have?
11-10-2018, 03:16 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 191
Originally Posted by ToddChavez
I value myself. I also live in the real world.
I haven't decided one way or another, but tanking this deal over a few $ is dumb. I will look at the overall package and decide.
But frankly, I don't want to make $140/hr for the next 2 years FOR THE POSSIBILITY I can get a few dollars more.
Have you asked yourselves what happens when the economy tanks and we don't have this deal sealed up?
I haven't decided one way or another, but tanking this deal over a few $ is dumb. I will look at the overall package and decide.
But frankly, I don't want to make $140/hr for the next 2 years FOR THE POSSIBILITY I can get a few dollars more.
Have you asked yourselves what happens when the economy tanks and we don't have this deal sealed up?
11-10-2018, 05:10 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Posts: 109
The union has consistently printed that they were bargaining for a ‘market rate contract’.
From the MEC:
“We are fully committed to the market pay and retirement goals you have identified.”
“Frontier used to be a good place to work. It can be again, but not until our management respects its employees, accepts reality, and bargains in good faith to achieve the market-rate contract we all have earned.”
“. . . the JetBlue pilot agreement would make it impossible for management's offer to be the basis for a ratified agreement. . .As discussed, we were compelled to modify our proposal.”
“In short, ALPA will continue to fight Indigo Partners and Frontier decision-making that is abusive and illegal. Winning the fight for industry standard pay and benefits is critical for Frontier pilots. . .”
“. . .we won't agree to a "discount" contract. . .”
This is a big jump compared to our bankruptcy contract. BUT jumping up to grab the bottom rung of the ladder in this market and holding on for FIVE YEARS IS NOT good enough for our pilot group!!! My expectations have already been set and managed by my union—I expect a market rate contract!
From the MEC:
“We are fully committed to the market pay and retirement goals you have identified.”
“Frontier used to be a good place to work. It can be again, but not until our management respects its employees, accepts reality, and bargains in good faith to achieve the market-rate contract we all have earned.”
“. . . the JetBlue pilot agreement would make it impossible for management's offer to be the basis for a ratified agreement. . .As discussed, we were compelled to modify our proposal.”
“In short, ALPA will continue to fight Indigo Partners and Frontier decision-making that is abusive and illegal. Winning the fight for industry standard pay and benefits is critical for Frontier pilots. . .”
“. . .we won't agree to a "discount" contract. . .”
This is a big jump compared to our bankruptcy contract. BUT jumping up to grab the bottom rung of the ladder in this market and holding on for FIVE YEARS IS NOT good enough for our pilot group!!! My expectations have already been set and managed by my union—I expect a market rate contract!
Last edited by Biffsteritis; 11-10-2018 at 05:12 AM. Reason: Typo
