ReserveCA

So much for ever hoping to get off reserve......vote NO

monkeybrains

DOT does not consider available reserves. When we get to the DAG, currently 3 days out, 4 days in the new TA, that changes and is often more beneficial if the DDL is at limits.
The reason it is SOMETIMES easier to drop in MOT is that the DDLs are higher, however that doesn’t guarantee you can drop a trip. (ie it is typically easier to drop a Christmas Eve or Christmas trip because relief lines clear out most of the open time that’s left after monthly.
The 4% open time limit allows the solver to leave more time open after the build. It can build more lines if there is flying that pilots want, but won’t if it isn’t. In the current book we are left with approximately 1% open time at the start of DOT, so with a higher limit pilots are less likely to have flying added to their schedule that they don’t want. At some point flying must be added to pilots schedule, this is true in line building and pbs, we can’t have 100% of all flying left in open time after the build, so some pilots preferences won’t be honored. That is also true today. Someone has to work weekends, Christmas, etc.
As far as vacation, I’m not trying to fool you at all, with vacation being worth 5:00 of CREDIT(not; pay no credit) you will absolutely be able to net the same days off, long blocks off as you do under line building. Junior pilot’s will likely do better under pbs with the inviolate days allowing larger blocks of days off.
The association said they ultimately considered PBS cause the company wanted it so bad they, 1) agreed to the best vendor, 2) a pbs letter that assures is of great language like DL, B6, HA and NK have and most importantly 3) industry leading value of vacation with current book for drop/swap which allows us to modify our schedules after DOT opens.

Xdashdriver

No. 4% open time means less unstacking because the software isn’t programmed to shove everything onto lines. There are separate unstacking limits that will be negotiated during the next 12 months that will limit how far up the list unstacking can go. I believe Spirit negotiated a 50/30 unstacking limit, which IIRC is the same as Delta. Holiday unstacking can go up to 50% up the list. Normal days is stopped at 30% up the list. Due to the language in the PBS LOA, it is likely we will get something similar.

Vacation values will decrease slightly for those who are currently able to drop more than 35-40 hours of trips (not everyone can do that). As far as reducing the number of days off, it will be pretty comparable (+/- 1-2 days). In fact, with FDO RSV lines, it’s possible more junior pilots could even see long stretches of days off in a row in a vacation month.

This has been explained multiple times in these threads and yet you either do not understand or just refuse to believe it.

Let’s face it, when you bid a line right now, you don’t get EVERYTHING you want on it. In other words, there are likely trips on your lines you bid now that you wouldn’t have bid for if you could bid for them separately. So the current system awards you trips you wouldn’t have bid for, but are forced to because it’s part of a bigger package. With PBS, unless you’re among the most junior lineholders, or you don’t know how to use the software, you will likely get a lot more of what you want than with line bidding. If you do end up getting something you really don’t want, then the exact same system we have today will be available to you to drop/swap with open time....but with more than 3 times the amount of open time.

wt93205

Line bidding is 100% unstacked. True because you are bidding on the final product. You are able to bid on the post process using your seniority. So no matter if the lines were adjusted to accommodate extra coverage on certain days has already been done prior to bidding. The pilot group then gets to bid with seniority for the good vs crappy lines created due to whatever process the company used. With PBS your seniority means squat when you get unstacked. It is a stack created DURING the bidding process WITH PBS. You don't have a choice when you get unstacked with PBS. Do some research on unstacking before claiming we have it worse now with 100 percent unstack vs PBS unstacking. Geez.

Xdashdriver

Ok. Research done. Firstly, as I’m sure you remember with Navtech at Mesa... PBS DOES respect seniority under most normal circumstances. Once it detects unstacking is necessary it starts by identifying if any of the stacks could be reduced by looking at pilot preferences and seeing if anyone has actually bid for anything in those stacks. Then it starts coverage awards (unstacking). If it gets to the end and junior pilots don’t have trips unstacked onto them, then it erases and starts again at a lower seniority point to get to the point where the “rest of the list” gets coverage awards until the stacks are down to acceptable levels. It goes through this process multiple times to figure out the best iteration in regards to seniority.

With the unstacking limits we will likely get, unstacking will stop at the 50% seniority mark on holidays and 30% up the list on normal days.

The reason you saw the levels of unstacking you did at Mesa was because of the massive staffing shortage and virtually unconstrained (contractual) line values that the company could set in the software. This meant many of the junior pilots became FAR-illegal to accept any more flying on their schedules, forcing stacks higher up the seniority list. I doubt Frontier would let it get anywhere close to that bad on the staffing front here.

Additionally, since crew planning was the one running the software at Mesa, they had a “good enough” approach to running the solution and didn’t care to try multiple iterations, tweaking parameters to reduce the overall level of unstacking (although I think in many cases they did with input from ALPA). In our case here, ALPA will be the ones doing the tweaking and playing with the solutions until they can get an optimized solution that benefits the group as a whole.

If anyone wants to read the Delta PBS guide, it explains it a lot better than I can:

http://www.pbshelp.info/delta/PBS_Gouge.pdf#page81

In the area of unstacking (coverage awards as Navtech calls it), Navtech respects both seniority and pilot preferences at a much higher level than other software.

sailingfun

I gather you have not bid under a modern well executed PBS system. You can easily avoid unstacking via negative preferences and defaulting to a reserve line. Pretty much exactly what you do with paper line biding. Unstacking was held out as a giant bogeyman at my airline before implementation of PBS. Now you almost never hear about it. The vast majority of pilots would not return to line bidding after using PBS. I suspect the margin would be 95% for pbs at my airline. You will almost never find that level of agreement amongst pilots.
No matter what system you use the exact same number of pilots need to work holidays and weekends.

Wheelswatch

Actually I did exactly this at Mesa all of the time. Unstacked?, Yes again!, No thanks Reserve Please, Hello days off I wanted.

CantStayAway

Spirit has yet to agree on unstacking limits. From the sound of it they will likely be testing the arbitration language for this within the next month or 2. Rest assured that whatever they’re awarded, Frontier will not agree to less. Likely an arbitrator would not make Frontier’s less favorable either.

AncientAliens

Then why does Southwest still have line bidding? Everyone else but Spirit got PBS in bankruptcy. If it’s so great why wasn’t ALPA clamoring for it from the beginning?

sailingfun

I am not sure what ALPA has to do with SWA. I can tell you that in contract surveys a return to line bidding is requested at a rate under 1%. SWA is extremely efficient in pilot utilization. Far more so than any legacy. I doubt PBS was a high management priority at SWA. PBS at Delta came about in LOA 46 not the bankruptcy contract. PBS can reduce your overall pilot manning depending on the work rules. That is why managements push for it. Delta has PBS however their overall work rules require more pilots per airframe than SWA.