New contract
02-04-2019, 06:57 PM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 464
Originally Posted by Notarealpilot
They cancelled our vacations out of spite and you don’t think they’ll abuse this?
Look, I voted no, and I don't like the reassignment language. Will they reassign inside the trip? Yes that is likely. Outside of when you are scheduled to get back, less so. Again, if the rate of significant reassignments skyrockets I could fully understand why a pilot would end up being fatigued. I just don't see that risk being totally worth the reward to the company, it's cheaper to just not be staffed THAT lean.
02-04-2019, 07:32 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 592
Interesting. At Xjet we're not forced to accept a reassignment beyond the original release time. If you have somewhere to be after your pairing ends, you can say no. If you accept, the credit beyond the original release time pays 150%.
02-07-2019, 11:24 AM
#73
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Position: 320 Capt.
Posts: 20
It is more cost effective to pay premium rates than have extra pilots on the payroll. The new contract is rife with exceptions and incentives to keep staffing at a minimum. An easy example is the choice management has to limit months during the year.
There are caveats in this contract I've never seen in about half a dozen other contracts I've worked under. For any pilot to suggest our management "wouldn't do that" is naive.
The problem we have is when money doesn't solve your problems with what is being done to you in the work environment. Get tired, get violated and see how management goes to bat for you.
Well, if the reputation for abuse goes out there and new pilots avoid Frontier, we can always give second year pay to new hires. That first year pay increase has solved that problem at this airline before, when the naive part of Frontier management forgot to put probation pay into the new pay agreement. It worked well then, as Frontier ended up with the highest new hire pay in the industry and many pilots tagged that as a reason they hired on.
The pilots at this airline were fooled with money (and a degree of fear imposed by people like the jerk off who felt the need to explain to you how much money you'd lose if you did not vote yes).
You are going to pay for this when the bidding and notification system goes into effect. That will be the era when you can't find a pilot bragging about why he voted yes.
History repeats itself. It's far better to work for a company that values its employees rather than one that throws money at you and laughs at your predictability. Ya think? Hell, you're already at the bottom of the industry standard.
There are caveats in this contract I've never seen in about half a dozen other contracts I've worked under. For any pilot to suggest our management "wouldn't do that" is naive.
The problem we have is when money doesn't solve your problems with what is being done to you in the work environment. Get tired, get violated and see how management goes to bat for you.
Well, if the reputation for abuse goes out there and new pilots avoid Frontier, we can always give second year pay to new hires. That first year pay increase has solved that problem at this airline before, when the naive part of Frontier management forgot to put probation pay into the new pay agreement. It worked well then, as Frontier ended up with the highest new hire pay in the industry and many pilots tagged that as a reason they hired on.
The pilots at this airline were fooled with money (and a degree of fear imposed by people like the jerk off who felt the need to explain to you how much money you'd lose if you did not vote yes).
You are going to pay for this when the bidding and notification system goes into effect. That will be the era when you can't find a pilot bragging about why he voted yes.
History repeats itself. It's far better to work for a company that values its employees rather than one that throws money at you and laughs at your predictability. Ya think? Hell, you're already at the bottom of the industry standard.
02-08-2019, 09:03 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,078
Originally Posted by PorkandBeans
It is more cost effective to pay premium rates than have extra pilots on the payroll. The new contract is rife with exceptions and incentives to keep staffing at a minimum. An easy example is the choice management has to limit months during the year.
We wanted this. Did you want to have to continue to finish every bid period with 70 credit? I think thats what your referring to?
There are caveats in this contract I've never seen in about half a dozen other contracts I've worked under. For any pilot to suggest our management "wouldn't do that" is naive.
Agreed.
The problem we have is when money doesn't solve your problems with what is being done to you in the work environment. Get tired, get violated and see how management goes to bat for you.
There's pay protection language now for that that didn't exist in the previous agreement. Plan on this management never going to bat for you and you'll never be disappointed.
Well, if the reputation for abuse goes out there and new pilots avoid Frontier, we can always give second year pay to new hires. That first year pay increase has solved that problem at this airline before, when the naive part of Frontier management forgot to put probation pay into the new pay agreement. It worked well then, as Frontier ended up with the highest new hire pay in the industry and many pilots tagged that as a reason they hired on.
The pilots at this airline were fooled with money (and a degree of fear imposed by people like the jerk off who felt the need to explain to you how much money you'd lose if you did not vote yes).
The jerk that spent hundreds if not thousands of hours of his own time (contrary to popular belief trips are seldom dropped) dealing with the worst management group in the industry to improve your and my life? Sorry if your afraid of math.
You are going to pay for this when the bidding and notification system goes into effect. That will be the era when you can't find a pilot bragging about why he voted yes.
TBD.
History repeats itself. It's far better to work for a company that values its employees rather than one that throws money at you and laughs at your predictability. Ya think? Hell, you're already at the bottom of the industry standard.
We wanted this. Did you want to have to continue to finish every bid period with 70 credit? I think thats what your referring to?
There are caveats in this contract I've never seen in about half a dozen other contracts I've worked under. For any pilot to suggest our management "wouldn't do that" is naive.
Agreed.
The problem we have is when money doesn't solve your problems with what is being done to you in the work environment. Get tired, get violated and see how management goes to bat for you.
There's pay protection language now for that that didn't exist in the previous agreement. Plan on this management never going to bat for you and you'll never be disappointed.
Well, if the reputation for abuse goes out there and new pilots avoid Frontier, we can always give second year pay to new hires. That first year pay increase has solved that problem at this airline before, when the naive part of Frontier management forgot to put probation pay into the new pay agreement. It worked well then, as Frontier ended up with the highest new hire pay in the industry and many pilots tagged that as a reason they hired on.
The pilots at this airline were fooled with money (and a degree of fear imposed by people like the jerk off who felt the need to explain to you how much money you'd lose if you did not vote yes).
The jerk that spent hundreds if not thousands of hours of his own time (contrary to popular belief trips are seldom dropped) dealing with the worst management group in the industry to improve your and my life? Sorry if your afraid of math.
You are going to pay for this when the bidding and notification system goes into effect. That will be the era when you can't find a pilot bragging about why he voted yes.
TBD.
History repeats itself. It's far better to work for a company that values its employees rather than one that throws money at you and laughs at your predictability. Ya think? Hell, you're already at the bottom of the industry standard.
02-08-2019, 03:15 PM
#75
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Position: 320 Capt.
Posts: 20
Well,
May I suggest on this and other message boards, if a poster wishes to respond to points made on a previous post via cut and paste, the responses should be in a different font or style as to not confuse the reader. Otherwise, the posting may end up as nothing more than the dreaded “mumbo jumbo”.
And so came a response from my post and I will clarify as to not confuse the reader(s).
Regarding the new company option to limit schedules on month to month staffing requirements:
New Contract:
“However, for at least six (6) Monthly Bid Periods, in a calendar year per Position, a Pilot will be permitted to complete the month with no less than sixty (60) hours of Pay Credit, such months to be designated by the Company no later than the publication of the Annual Vacation Bid Award, but such designated Monthly Bid Periods may be changed by mutual agreement between the Company and ALPA.”
This caveat allows the company to staff with respect to heavy flying months by limiting vacation awards minimums during those heavy flying months and thus having less pilots on the payroll year round. This has a direct effect on the number of vacation days which will be awarded when the rest of society usually enjoys vacations. If a pilot has kids in school, this matters. If you like vacations in summertime, school vacations, etc., this matters. You will not be able to maximize your vacation days using pref bidding as you would otherwise. Pref bidding changes this whole game.
Now to be clear - allowing the drop limit to 60 is a good thing for some pilots and the company, but it also limits premium vacation periods in the pref bidding process. A pilot will invariably be awarded fewer vacation days during those 70 hour months. This does, however, place additional stress on the entire scheduling system due to the obvious reduction in staffing requirements. By mutual agreement, these months can be slid around for the obvious flexibility the company wants in case of a faster expansion, pilots leaving for other airlines and pilots not wanting to come to work at Frontier. Of course, there’s also a caveat to essentially double the first year pay. So, the company got it covered - sort of. You also get a reassignment phone app. Another big “give” while reassignment abuse is currently being addressed at other carriers. Good luck with that. Is Frontier buying recovery software? Haven't heard a peep.
My post read: “Get tired, get violated and see how management goes to bat for you.”
Your Response:
“There's pay protection language now for that that didn't exist in the previous agreement.”
My Response:
Your above comment is not related to FAR violations resulting in FAA enforcement. It pertains to company discipline and it not relevant to my comment. Hopefully the pilot will get support from ALPA as a historical benefit.
Your Response:
“The jerk that spent hundreds if not thousands of hours of his own time (contrary to popular belief trips are seldom dropped) dealing with the worst management group in the industry to improve your and my life? Sorry if your afraid of math.”
My Response:
Not jerk - jerk off. The same one that preached “now is not the time for ALPA”, thereby delaying progress towards a better contract you brag about. You can easily dispel popular belief by quoting the hours the person dropped while working in what he believed to be our best interest. Do that math. I could be wrong. Maybe he’s a saint.
This comment reminds me of millionaires running for political office claiming their desire “to serve”. Whatever you choose to believe.
Your Response:
“TBD”
My Response:
Duh.
Your response:
“Southwest is hiring”
My Response:
It is incredibly naive to suggest that. Was it stated in anger? You have a conflict here. You claim Indigo is not to be trusted while defending loopholes which could have been covered in the modification of the TA after pilots reviewed the details.
This was not done.
There are many more points to cover in this contract which I consider sub standard. They will come out in time, right? TBD?
May I suggest on this and other message boards, if a poster wishes to respond to points made on a previous post via cut and paste, the responses should be in a different font or style as to not confuse the reader. Otherwise, the posting may end up as nothing more than the dreaded “mumbo jumbo”.
And so came a response from my post and I will clarify as to not confuse the reader(s).
Regarding the new company option to limit schedules on month to month staffing requirements:
New Contract:
“However, for at least six (6) Monthly Bid Periods, in a calendar year per Position, a Pilot will be permitted to complete the month with no less than sixty (60) hours of Pay Credit, such months to be designated by the Company no later than the publication of the Annual Vacation Bid Award, but such designated Monthly Bid Periods may be changed by mutual agreement between the Company and ALPA.”
This caveat allows the company to staff with respect to heavy flying months by limiting vacation awards minimums during those heavy flying months and thus having less pilots on the payroll year round. This has a direct effect on the number of vacation days which will be awarded when the rest of society usually enjoys vacations. If a pilot has kids in school, this matters. If you like vacations in summertime, school vacations, etc., this matters. You will not be able to maximize your vacation days using pref bidding as you would otherwise. Pref bidding changes this whole game.
Now to be clear - allowing the drop limit to 60 is a good thing for some pilots and the company, but it also limits premium vacation periods in the pref bidding process. A pilot will invariably be awarded fewer vacation days during those 70 hour months. This does, however, place additional stress on the entire scheduling system due to the obvious reduction in staffing requirements. By mutual agreement, these months can be slid around for the obvious flexibility the company wants in case of a faster expansion, pilots leaving for other airlines and pilots not wanting to come to work at Frontier. Of course, there’s also a caveat to essentially double the first year pay. So, the company got it covered - sort of. You also get a reassignment phone app. Another big “give” while reassignment abuse is currently being addressed at other carriers. Good luck with that. Is Frontier buying recovery software? Haven't heard a peep.
My post read: “Get tired, get violated and see how management goes to bat for you.”
Your Response:
“There's pay protection language now for that that didn't exist in the previous agreement.”
My Response:
Your above comment is not related to FAR violations resulting in FAA enforcement. It pertains to company discipline and it not relevant to my comment. Hopefully the pilot will get support from ALPA as a historical benefit.
Your Response:
“The jerk that spent hundreds if not thousands of hours of his own time (contrary to popular belief trips are seldom dropped) dealing with the worst management group in the industry to improve your and my life? Sorry if your afraid of math.”
My Response:
Not jerk - jerk off. The same one that preached “now is not the time for ALPA”, thereby delaying progress towards a better contract you brag about. You can easily dispel popular belief by quoting the hours the person dropped while working in what he believed to be our best interest. Do that math. I could be wrong. Maybe he’s a saint.
This comment reminds me of millionaires running for political office claiming their desire “to serve”. Whatever you choose to believe.
Your Response:
“TBD”
My Response:
Duh.
Your response:
“Southwest is hiring”
My Response:
It is incredibly naive to suggest that. Was it stated in anger? You have a conflict here. You claim Indigo is not to be trusted while defending loopholes which could have been covered in the modification of the TA after pilots reviewed the details.
This was not done.
There are many more points to cover in this contract which I consider sub standard. They will come out in time, right? TBD?
02-08-2019, 08:43 PM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,078
Originally Posted by PorkandBeans
Well,
May I suggest on this and other message boards, if a poster wishes to respond to points made on a previous post via cut and paste, the responses should be in a different font or style as to not confuse the reader. Otherwise, the posting may end up as nothing more than the dreaded “mumbo jumbo”.
And so came a response from my post and I will clarify as to not confuse the reader(s).
Regarding the new company option to limit schedules on month to month staffing requirements:
New Contract:
“However, for at least six (6) Monthly Bid Periods, in a calendar year per Position, a Pilot will be permitted to complete the month with no less than sixty (60) hours of Pay Credit, such months to be designated by the Company no later than the publication of the Annual Vacation Bid Award, but such designated Monthly Bid Periods may be changed by mutual agreement between the Company and ALPA.”
This caveat allows the company to staff with respect to heavy flying months by limiting vacation awards minimums during those heavy flying months and thus having less pilots on the payroll year round. This has a direct effect on the number of vacation days which will be awarded when the rest of society usually enjoys vacations. If a pilot has kids in school, this matters. If you like vacations in summertime, school vacations, etc., this matters. You will not be able to maximize your vacation days using pref bidding as you would otherwise. Pref bidding changes this whole game.
Now to be clear - allowing the drop limit to 60 is a good thing for some pilots and the company, but it also limits premium vacation periods in the pref bidding process. A pilot will invariably be awarded fewer vacation days during those 70 hour months. This does, however, place additional stress on the entire scheduling system due to the obvious reduction in staffing requirements. By mutual agreement, these months can be slid around for the obvious flexibility the company wants in case of a faster expansion, pilots leaving for other airlines and pilots not wanting to come to work at Frontier. Of course, there’s also a caveat to essentially double the first year pay. So, the company got it covered - sort of. You also get a reassignment phone app. Another big “give” while reassignment abuse is currently being addressed at other carriers. Good luck with that. Is Frontier buying recovery software? Haven't heard a peep.
My post read: “Get tired, get violated and see how management goes to bat for you.”
Your Response:
“There's pay protection language now for that that didn't exist in the previous agreement.”
My Response:
Your above comment is not related to FAR violations resulting in FAA enforcement. It pertains to company discipline and it not relevant to my comment. Hopefully the pilot will get support from ALPA as a historical benefit.
Your Response:
“The jerk that spent hundreds if not thousands of hours of his own time (contrary to popular belief trips are seldom dropped) dealing with the worst management group in the industry to improve your and my life? Sorry if your afraid of math.”
My Response:
Not jerk - jerk off. The same one that preached “now is not the time for ALPA”, thereby delaying progress towards a better contract you brag about. You can easily dispel popular belief by quoting the hours the person dropped while working in what he believed to be our best interest. Do that math. I could be wrong. Maybe he’s a saint.
This comment reminds me of millionaires running for political office claiming their desire “to serve”. Whatever you choose to believe.
Your Response:
“TBD”
My Response:
Duh.
Your response:
“Southwest is hiring”
My Response:
It is incredibly naive to suggest that. Was it stated in anger? You have a conflict here. You claim Indigo is not to be trusted while defending loopholes which could have been covered in the modification of the TA after pilots reviewed the details.
This was not done.
There are many more points to cover in this contract which I consider sub standard. They will come out in time, right? TBD?
May I suggest on this and other message boards, if a poster wishes to respond to points made on a previous post via cut and paste, the responses should be in a different font or style as to not confuse the reader. Otherwise, the posting may end up as nothing more than the dreaded “mumbo jumbo”.
And so came a response from my post and I will clarify as to not confuse the reader(s).
Regarding the new company option to limit schedules on month to month staffing requirements:
New Contract:
“However, for at least six (6) Monthly Bid Periods, in a calendar year per Position, a Pilot will be permitted to complete the month with no less than sixty (60) hours of Pay Credit, such months to be designated by the Company no later than the publication of the Annual Vacation Bid Award, but such designated Monthly Bid Periods may be changed by mutual agreement between the Company and ALPA.”
This caveat allows the company to staff with respect to heavy flying months by limiting vacation awards minimums during those heavy flying months and thus having less pilots on the payroll year round. This has a direct effect on the number of vacation days which will be awarded when the rest of society usually enjoys vacations. If a pilot has kids in school, this matters. If you like vacations in summertime, school vacations, etc., this matters. You will not be able to maximize your vacation days using pref bidding as you would otherwise. Pref bidding changes this whole game.
Now to be clear - allowing the drop limit to 60 is a good thing for some pilots and the company, but it also limits premium vacation periods in the pref bidding process. A pilot will invariably be awarded fewer vacation days during those 70 hour months. This does, however, place additional stress on the entire scheduling system due to the obvious reduction in staffing requirements. By mutual agreement, these months can be slid around for the obvious flexibility the company wants in case of a faster expansion, pilots leaving for other airlines and pilots not wanting to come to work at Frontier. Of course, there’s also a caveat to essentially double the first year pay. So, the company got it covered - sort of. You also get a reassignment phone app. Another big “give” while reassignment abuse is currently being addressed at other carriers. Good luck with that. Is Frontier buying recovery software? Haven't heard a peep.
My post read: “Get tired, get violated and see how management goes to bat for you.”
Your Response:
“There's pay protection language now for that that didn't exist in the previous agreement.”
My Response:
Your above comment is not related to FAR violations resulting in FAA enforcement. It pertains to company discipline and it not relevant to my comment. Hopefully the pilot will get support from ALPA as a historical benefit.
Your Response:
“The jerk that spent hundreds if not thousands of hours of his own time (contrary to popular belief trips are seldom dropped) dealing with the worst management group in the industry to improve your and my life? Sorry if your afraid of math.”
My Response:
Not jerk - jerk off. The same one that preached “now is not the time for ALPA”, thereby delaying progress towards a better contract you brag about. You can easily dispel popular belief by quoting the hours the person dropped while working in what he believed to be our best interest. Do that math. I could be wrong. Maybe he’s a saint.
This comment reminds me of millionaires running for political office claiming their desire “to serve”. Whatever you choose to believe.
Your Response:
“TBD”
My Response:
Duh.
Your response:
“Southwest is hiring”
My Response:
It is incredibly naive to suggest that. Was it stated in anger? You have a conflict here. You claim Indigo is not to be trusted while defending loopholes which could have been covered in the modification of the TA after pilots reviewed the details.
This was not done.
There are many more points to cover in this contract which I consider sub standard. They will come out in time, right? TBD?
Last edited by fcoolaiddrinker; 02-08-2019 at 08:58 PM.
02-08-2019, 09:27 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,078
Originally Posted by NWSteeringArmer
The reassignment language doesn’t take effect until the company puts out their optional app...
02-08-2019, 10:15 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,078
pork and beans. Sec 7.I of the new agreement does put limits on the company to some extent. The vac has to be distributed somewhat evenly. That language carries into pbs with LOA 3. paragraph 4. Another problem with your theory the company is just going to reduce summer and holiday vac under pbs. Now having said all of that, until PBS language is finalized thats about all Im willing to speculate about it.
02-09-2019, 10:45 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,078
My Response:
Not jerk - jerk off. The same one that preached “now is not the time for ALPA”, thereby delaying progress towards a better contract you brag about. You can easily dispel popular belief by quoting the hours the person dropped while working in what he believed to be our best interest. Do that math. I could be wrong. Maybe he’s a saint.
This comment reminds me of millionaires running for political office claiming their desire “to serve”. Whatever you choose to believe.
Are you suggesting that if we had voted ALPA in lets say 2 years earlier our amendable date would somehow have changed? We started negotiations the day our contract permitted (I believe it was one year early opener). Doesn't really matter for the reasons I mentioned earlier. No way no how would any reasonable person vote in a union that your fighting in a relative seniority list battle before thats done. I take back what I said. Theres really no valid points to your earlier post. Its all mumbo jumbo.
Not jerk - jerk off. The same one that preached “now is not the time for ALPA”, thereby delaying progress towards a better contract you brag about. You can easily dispel popular belief by quoting the hours the person dropped while working in what he believed to be our best interest. Do that math. I could be wrong. Maybe he’s a saint.
This comment reminds me of millionaires running for political office claiming their desire “to serve”. Whatever you choose to believe.
Are you suggesting that if we had voted ALPA in lets say 2 years earlier our amendable date would somehow have changed? We started negotiations the day our contract permitted (I believe it was one year early opener). Doesn't really matter for the reasons I mentioned earlier. No way no how would any reasonable person vote in a union that your fighting in a relative seniority list battle before thats done. I take back what I said. Theres really no valid points to your earlier post. Its all mumbo jumbo.
Last edited by fcoolaiddrinker; 02-09-2019 at 11:28 AM.
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