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Frontier vs Flow

Old 07-10-2019, 12:36 PM
  #1  
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Default Frontier vs Flow

Hello all,

I'm fortunate to have an offer at Frontier. I currently am at a AA WO. I'm still about 3 or so years from flowing.

I love the idea of either living/commuting to LAS or DEN (drive to Vegas, flight to Denver, or move).

I'll have 30 year career at F9, as opposed to 26-27 years at AA.

With the projected growth at F9 I feel now would be a good time to get in. Additionally, I would also say F9 is, and will be, more financially stable than AA (debatable/who knows).

All my WO buddies say wait for the flow (retirement numbers, WB Capt., too big to fail, etc.) I'm interested in the F9 pilot perspective. If you were in the same shoes (knowing what you know about F9) what would you do? Give up your spot in line to AA, or go F9. Appreciate any answers.
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Old 07-10-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by APCHCLIMB View Post
Hello all,

I'm fortunate to have an offer at Frontier. I currently am at a AA WO. I'm still about 3 or so years from flowing.

I love the idea of either living/commuting to LAS or DEN (drive to Vegas, flight to Denver, or move).

I'll have 30 year career at F9, as opposed to 26-27 years at AA.

With the projected growth at F9 I feel now would be a good time to get in. Additionally, I would also say F9 is, and will be, more financially stable than AA (debatable/who knows).

All my WO buddies say wait for the flow (retirement numbers, WB Capt., too big to fail, etc.) I'm interested in the F9 pilot perspective. If you were in the same shoes (knowing what you know about F9) what would you do? Give up your spot in line to AA, or go F9. Appreciate any answers.
Audriesaircraftanalysis.com has a career numbers calculator. Works well. Plug in your age and seat (wherever you currently are) and it will show you career earnings for each year at AMR. Then just compare those numbers against other mainline carriers. I would start there. Takes a little searching around the site but it’s there. Just to make sure your not leaving millions on the table. After that roll dice.
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:03 PM
  #3  
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Originally Posted by APCHCLIMB View Post
Hello all,

I'm fortunate to have an offer at Frontier. I currently am at a AA WO. I'm still about 3 or so years from flowing.

I love the idea of either living/commuting to LAS or DEN (drive to Vegas, flight to Denver, or move).

I'll have 30 year career at F9, as opposed to 26-27 years at AA.

With the projected growth at F9 I feel now would be a good time to get in. Additionally, I would also say F9 is, and will be, more financially stable than AA (debatable/who knows).

All my WO buddies say wait for the flow (retirement numbers, WB Capt., too big to fail, etc.) I'm interested in the F9 pilot perspective. If you were in the same shoes (knowing what you know about F9) what would you do? Give up your spot in line to AA, or go F9. Appreciate any answers.
Money today is better than the promise of money sometime in the future. A 25+ year commute would suck, so go to the place where you want to live.

You could be a captain at Frontier by time you flow in 3 or 4 years (depending on how many times AA shuts down hiring to deal with training backlogs caused by mass displacements as fleets change and folks re-bid). You’re still about be 7-10 years away from being an airbus captain at AA.

There are plenty of WO pilots who would be very hesitant to turn down a job offer at a major with the way things have been going at the WOs and the uncertainty of the financial future at AA long term.
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:06 PM
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That’s tough... you can read through all these threads and see how out of touch management is with this pilot group and running an airline in general... this place is a dumpster fire and there’s absolutely no debating that... we are “over staffed” and have stopped upgrading and hiring yet I’ve gotten probably 25 alerts for premium trips in the last 36 hours...

You say you have a guaranteed flow to AA in 3 years... unless you’re in the seat and on the seniority list at AA, it is far from guaranteed... ask anyone who was starting class or upgrade when 9/11 went down... even people on lists and in seats got put out on the street...

Delta is viewed as a premier operation in the eyes of most everyone in the industry yet people seem to forget that 10 years ago delta was in bankruptcy and northwest brought the capital and Richard Andersen to the table to save their a$$... so as far as being too big to fail (and I understand Delta was a much smaller carrier before the merger and they’re still smaller than AA now), I think that’s a ridiculous notion... any company can fail for myriad reasons...

There were 2 airlines that made money in 2008... southwest and spirit... that should tell you something right there... even when a recession hits, the low cost model is effective... frontier absolutely prints money... fuel prices will change... the economy will tank... there will be some life altering event out of anyone’s control... it will happen... do you want to be on the list at a stagnant regional with a “guarantee” in your back pocket or on the seniority list of a company that makes their own schedule?

I’ve been at frontier 5 years... I’m jaded... I know what I’ve gotten into and I know what you’d be getting yourself into... but if I had a chance to get out of a regional now vs waiting 3 years for something that may or may not happen, I’d be gone like a fart in a hurricane...
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by NWSteeringArmer View Post
That’s tough... you can read through all these threads and see how out of touch management is with this pilot group and running an airline in general... this place is a dumpster fire and there’s absolutely no debating that... we are “over staffed” and have stopped upgrading and hiring yet I’ve gotten probably 25 alerts for premium trips in the last 36 hours...

You say you have a guaranteed flow to AA in 3 years... unless you’re in the seat and on the seniority list at AA, it is far from guaranteed... ask anyone who was starting class or upgrade when 9/11 went down... even people on lists and in seats got put out on the street...

Delta is viewed as a premier operation in the eyes of most everyone in the industry yet people seem to forget that 10 years ago delta was in bankruptcy and northwest brought the capital and Richard Andersen to the table to save their a$$... so as far as being too big to fail (and I understand Delta was a much smaller carrier before the merger and they’re still smaller than AA now), I think that’s a ridiculous notion... any company can fail for myriad reasons...

There were 2 airlines that made money in 2008... southwest and spirit... that should tell you something right there... even when a recession hits, the low cost model is effective... frontier absolutely prints money... fuel prices will change... the economy will tank... there will be some life altering event out of anyone’s control... it will happen... do you want to be on the list at a stagnant regional with a “guarantee” in your back pocket or on the seniority list of a company that makes their own schedule?

I’ve been at frontier 5 years... I’m jaded... I know what I’ve gotten into and I know what you’d be getting yourself into... but if I had a chance to get out of a regional now vs waiting 3 years for something that may or may not happen, I’d be gone like a fart in a hurricane...
I agree with everything you just said. Most WO pilots tend to make the choice around the 2-3 year mark to either go to whoever calls or stick it out for the flow. And that's where I'm at. I wish I had gotten the call 2-4 years ago (never applied for various reasons). I wouldn't have thought twice about it.

The flow cool-aid is strong with the people I work with. You'd swear that AA was the best thing since sliced bread and you're foolish to do anything else. Thanks for your input NWS.
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by fcoolaiddrinker View Post
Audriesaircraftanalysis.com has a career numbers calculator. Works well. Plug in your age and seat (wherever you currently are) and it will show you career earnings for each year at AMR. Then just compare those numbers against other mainline carriers. I would start there. Takes a little searching around the site but it’s there. Just to make sure your not leaving millions on the table. After that roll dice.
Appreciate this fcoolaiddrinker.
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Old 07-10-2019, 02:04 PM
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Airbus in hand vs. Airbus in the bush ... Frontier may be good option, but given how far out the flow is for you, it may be worth it to stay. Where do you want to be based? Do you have any aspirations of flying widebody aircraft? Are AA travel benefits important to you? There are reasons it may be worthwhile to wait on AA since you're so close, but Frontier is an excellent option right now.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:36 PM
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Go to frontier. You may get to be a SWA FO if we try to get them again and they aren’t stupid the second time.


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Old 07-10-2019, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ihateusernames View Post
Go to frontier. You may get to be a SWA FO if we try to get them again and they aren’t stupid the second time.


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Or go to SWA and be an FO for the next decade..
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lowcountryflyer View Post
Or go to SWA and be an FO for the next decade..
Exactly. I don't know a single pilot here who left for WN.
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