Frontier or Atlas
05-11-2021, 08:15 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 829
A 747 flies just like any other airplane. It’s nice to have the bunks and the room I guess. I work for a cargo carrier that is very similar to Atlas for reasons that are important to me which include geography/family needs/seniority. But those needs are specific to me. I feel like if you were in a similar situation to me....you’d already know your answer. All else being equal...I’d have to recommend Frontier. 15% DC into a retirement account will be extrordinarily valuable at the end of your career. But for those who need home basing....there is no replacing it. Either way you go....every Delta captain that you ever meet will ask you if you “have your app in”.
05-11-2021, 08:35 PM
#32
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,480
NK and F9 were growing - preCOVID - at ~15% annually. They are now hiring again. NK is talking 400 new hires a year against a preCOVID baseline of ~2600. If they pull that off, the senior guy in the first postCOVID class they hire will be 2600/3000. That’s 87% overall and roughly 1050/1450 or roughly 72% as an FO. IN ONE YEAR.
But unlike the legacies, the ULCCs have a real young pilot group. NK is looking at only about 50 retirements a year - out of 3000 pilots. That’s about 1.7% annual attrition, whereas the legacies (less Alaska) are looking a up around 6-7% in the next few years. Frontier hasn’t posted their coming retirements but judging by their upgrade times they have a similarly young workforce.
The point is the seniority progression at the ULCCs right now has to do with their rapid expansion far more than it does their senior retirements. Perhaps they can continue growth at that rate forever, but I wouldn’t bet on it. But right now it’s happening, both have large numbers of aircraft on order and at that rate four year upgrades are entirely likely.
So if you have no desire to go to a ULCC and want to get a 747 type rating instead - go for it. Lord knows I’ve hauled my fair share of boxes. But if your ultimate goal is a ULCC, haring off to fly a 747 for a year or two is going to cost you mightily in seniority progression. Probably not the smartest move.
But unlike the legacies, the ULCCs have a real young pilot group. NK is looking at only about 50 retirements a year - out of 3000 pilots. That’s about 1.7% annual attrition, whereas the legacies (less Alaska) are looking a up around 6-7% in the next few years. Frontier hasn’t posted their coming retirements but judging by their upgrade times they have a similarly young workforce.
The point is the seniority progression at the ULCCs right now has to do with their rapid expansion far more than it does their senior retirements. Perhaps they can continue growth at that rate forever, but I wouldn’t bet on it. But right now it’s happening, both have large numbers of aircraft on order and at that rate four year upgrades are entirely likely.
So if you have no desire to go to a ULCC and want to get a 747 type rating instead - go for it. Lord knows I’ve hauled my fair share of boxes. But if your ultimate goal is a ULCC, haring off to fly a 747 for a year or two is going to cost you mightily in seniority progression. Probably not the smartest move.
05-11-2021, 08:41 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 663
Originally Posted by marcal
For what its worth and I have no skin in this game......go fly the B744 for a bit and see the world in a heavy. You will ALWAYS be able to leave after a year or two if you want and you will NEVER regret having done it. If you go to Frontiertg. first you may upgrade in a few years but you will always wonder. I flew long haul before my current airline and wouldn't have changed it at all even knowing it cost me some seniority. Enjoy the journey. Best of luck.
Sure, take a sabbatical from the real world to find yourself while your peers jump you in seniority.
The previous poster used ALL CAPS to say “always” and “never” which tells me he/she doesn’t have a clue what this industry is all about.
My free advice: find out who you are on your days off, not on your days at work.
05-12-2021, 09:45 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 300
Originally Posted by marcal
For what its worth and I have no skin in this game......go fly the B744 for a bit and see the world in a heavy. You will ALWAYS be able to leave after a year or two if you want and you will NEVER regret having done it. If you go to Frontier first you may upgrade in a few years but you will always wonder. I flew long haul before my current airline and wouldn't have changed it at all even knowing it cost me some seniority. Enjoy the journey. Best of luck.
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05-12-2021, 11:33 AM
#35
Almost there
Joined APC: Apr 2021
Posts: 1,086
Originally Posted by marcal
For what its worth and I have no skin in this game......go fly the B744 for a bit and see the world in a heavy. You will ALWAYS be able to leave after a year or two if you want and you will NEVER regret having done it. If you go to Frontier first you may upgrade in a few years but you will always wonder. I flew long haul before my current airline and wouldn't have changed it at all even knowing it cost me some seniority. Enjoy the journey. Best of luck.
05-13-2021, 01:07 PM
#37
Moderator
Joined APC: Jul 2018
Position: Reserve
Posts: 641
Lots of good info on this thread but truly, each decision is based on the individual. I went to Atlas when I was furloughed in 2020, spent almost an entire year climbing a massive hiring wave, and left for a ULCC when they called me out of the pool. Loved flying a heavy and doing the international stuff, but the main deciding factors were pay and retirement benefits, and the dreaded "scope" word. Atlas is great, but IMHO it felt like a big regional where you wonder what contract will get renewed or not. Will Amazon add more planes? Will DHL? ACMI pilots do not have the negotiating leverage of "brand" name carriers which is the sad truth because the type of operation you do at Atlas is definitely not for everyone, and can demand a lot. I would have loved to stay, but with well over 3 decades left of flying, I chose the carrier I felt like had better flexibility, retirement, etc.
05-13-2021, 07:30 PM
#38
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 747 CA
Posts: 52
I left Frontier in 2012.
Honestly, asking this forum for advice is a little “pie in the sky” sort of thing. What works for me, or your buddy may not be what works best for you. Yes, I’ll admit that I left F9 during a bankruptcy contract in bleak times. However, that wasn’t my only reason for jumping ship to 5Y. As already been said on here one hundred times, the flying couldn’t be more different. This long haul, international, 17 days on the road is not for everybody. But it was for me. Lot of people leave us for that very reason. But for me, I was tired of the multiple legs a day, navigating airports, security, getting flight plans, blah, blah, blah, all just to have 15 hours on an Omaha overnight.
On the whole, at 5Y I don’t lift a finger to move the airplane. Paperwork is brought to me, lot of stations we are delivered directly to the aircraft, hotels are nicer, overnights are longer. When I wrote the first post I just spent 70 hours in Tokyo. Now I’m coming off 48 hours in LA. 24/7 I’m still on Trip rig and per diem. No crash pads, tickets back and forth to the jet. I don’t work anywhere near as hard as I did flying the 320.
For the person who posted they’ve never heard of anyone leaving F9 for 5Y simply isn’t true. I’ve flown with a small handful of guys that left Frontier for Atlas. I’ve enjoyed keeping informed of how F9 is different now. But in interest of full disclosure, I’ve also known of a small handful of 5Y guys that have made the jump to F9. It all boils down to what you consider important and what value you place on QOL. Some of us aren’t looking for every last dollar. We place value on many things outside the hourly rate.
Again I’ll reiterate what works for me might not work for you. Part of the reason why I won’t look back is because of my timing here at Atlas. 9 years I’m top 23% seniority. Fell in to the front of an almost continuous hiring. I just don’t see how anyone hired today will make 747 CA anytime in the near future. So you have to ask yourself would the OP be better off at F9 or 5Y? Depends on where they see themselves in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, and none of us have that crystal ball.
Honestly, asking this forum for advice is a little “pie in the sky” sort of thing. What works for me, or your buddy may not be what works best for you. Yes, I’ll admit that I left F9 during a bankruptcy contract in bleak times. However, that wasn’t my only reason for jumping ship to 5Y. As already been said on here one hundred times, the flying couldn’t be more different. This long haul, international, 17 days on the road is not for everybody. But it was for me. Lot of people leave us for that very reason. But for me, I was tired of the multiple legs a day, navigating airports, security, getting flight plans, blah, blah, blah, all just to have 15 hours on an Omaha overnight.
On the whole, at 5Y I don’t lift a finger to move the airplane. Paperwork is brought to me, lot of stations we are delivered directly to the aircraft, hotels are nicer, overnights are longer. When I wrote the first post I just spent 70 hours in Tokyo. Now I’m coming off 48 hours in LA. 24/7 I’m still on Trip rig and per diem. No crash pads, tickets back and forth to the jet. I don’t work anywhere near as hard as I did flying the 320.
For the person who posted they’ve never heard of anyone leaving F9 for 5Y simply isn’t true. I’ve flown with a small handful of guys that left Frontier for Atlas. I’ve enjoyed keeping informed of how F9 is different now. But in interest of full disclosure, I’ve also known of a small handful of 5Y guys that have made the jump to F9. It all boils down to what you consider important and what value you place on QOL. Some of us aren’t looking for every last dollar. We place value on many things outside the hourly rate.
Again I’ll reiterate what works for me might not work for you. Part of the reason why I won’t look back is because of my timing here at Atlas. 9 years I’m top 23% seniority. Fell in to the front of an almost continuous hiring. I just don’t see how anyone hired today will make 747 CA anytime in the near future. So you have to ask yourself would the OP be better off at F9 or 5Y? Depends on where they see themselves in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, and none of us have that crystal ball.
05-14-2021, 09:35 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: Left
Posts: 1,807
Maybe this will help you in your decision - or maybe not.... Not sure if she was on the 747 at Atlas or Kalitta:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c-g90g8Dg7E&t=256s
Regardless of what you think about the video or her opinion, the point is very clear - make sure you understand what you are getting into and the type of flying you will do! She admits in the end that she did not understand the scheduling (and the potential for trips lasting more than 17 days in a row).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c-g90g8Dg7E&t=256s
Regardless of what you think about the video or her opinion, the point is very clear - make sure you understand what you are getting into and the type of flying you will do! She admits in the end that she did not understand the scheduling (and the potential for trips lasting more than 17 days in a row).
Last edited by David Puddy; 05-14-2021 at 09:45 AM.
05-14-2021, 09:38 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Position: B747 FO
Posts: 1,106
Originally Posted by Hogcapt
I left Frontier in 2012.
Honestly, asking this forum for advice is a little “pie in the sky” sort of thing. What works for me, or your buddy may not be what works best for you. Yes, I’ll admit that I left F9 during a bankruptcy contract in bleak times. However, that wasn’t my only reason for jumping ship to 5Y. As already been said on here one hundred times, the flying couldn’t be more different. This long haul, international, 17 days on the road is not for everybody. But it was for me. Lot of people leave us for that very reason. But for me, I was tired of the multiple legs a day, navigating airports, security, getting flight plans, blah, blah, blah, all just to have 15 hours on an Omaha overnight.
On the whole, at 5Y I don’t lift a finger to move the airplane. Paperwork is brought to me, lot of stations we are delivered directly to the aircraft, hotels are nicer, overnights are longer. When I wrote the first post I just spent 70 hours in Tokyo. Now I’m coming off 48 hours in LA. 24/7 I’m still on Trip rig and per diem. No crash pads, tickets back and forth to the jet. I don’t work anywhere near as hard as I did flying the 320.
For the person who posted they’ve never heard of anyone leaving F9 for 5Y simply isn’t true. I’ve flown with a small handful of guys that left Frontier for Atlas. I’ve enjoyed keeping informed of how F9 is different now. But in interest of full disclosure, I’ve also known of a small handful of 5Y guys that have made the jump to F9. It all boils down to what you consider important and what value you place on QOL. Some of us aren’t looking for every last dollar. We place value on many things outside the hourly rate.
Again I’ll reiterate what works for me might not work for you. Part of the reason why I won’t look back is because of my timing here at Atlas. 9 years I’m top 23% seniority. Fell in to the front of an almost continuous hiring. I just don’t see how anyone hired today will make 747 CA anytime in the near future. So you have to ask yourself would the OP be better off at F9 or 5Y? Depends on where they see themselves in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, and none of us have that crystal ball.
Honestly, asking this forum for advice is a little “pie in the sky” sort of thing. What works for me, or your buddy may not be what works best for you. Yes, I’ll admit that I left F9 during a bankruptcy contract in bleak times. However, that wasn’t my only reason for jumping ship to 5Y. As already been said on here one hundred times, the flying couldn’t be more different. This long haul, international, 17 days on the road is not for everybody. But it was for me. Lot of people leave us for that very reason. But for me, I was tired of the multiple legs a day, navigating airports, security, getting flight plans, blah, blah, blah, all just to have 15 hours on an Omaha overnight.
On the whole, at 5Y I don’t lift a finger to move the airplane. Paperwork is brought to me, lot of stations we are delivered directly to the aircraft, hotels are nicer, overnights are longer. When I wrote the first post I just spent 70 hours in Tokyo. Now I’m coming off 48 hours in LA. 24/7 I’m still on Trip rig and per diem. No crash pads, tickets back and forth to the jet. I don’t work anywhere near as hard as I did flying the 320.
For the person who posted they’ve never heard of anyone leaving F9 for 5Y simply isn’t true. I’ve flown with a small handful of guys that left Frontier for Atlas. I’ve enjoyed keeping informed of how F9 is different now. But in interest of full disclosure, I’ve also known of a small handful of 5Y guys that have made the jump to F9. It all boils down to what you consider important and what value you place on QOL. Some of us aren’t looking for every last dollar. We place value on many things outside the hourly rate.
Again I’ll reiterate what works for me might not work for you. Part of the reason why I won’t look back is because of my timing here at Atlas. 9 years I’m top 23% seniority. Fell in to the front of an almost continuous hiring. I just don’t see how anyone hired today will make 747 CA anytime in the near future. So you have to ask yourself would the OP be better off at F9 or 5Y? Depends on where they see themselves in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, and none of us have that crystal ball.
But I have the impression that lots of senior CAs will retire within the next 5 years or so (looking at the seniority list), then next round of senior FOs upgrading will occur, and then upgrade could go up considerable. Nothing wrong with being a senior FO in places like frontier, fedex, American, etc....but here there's a big pay jump in my opinion.
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