Frontier Vs Spirit
 

Good Morning!

I’ve been watching the news lately and hearing about all the drama Spirit is having with flight cancellations and dissatisfied customers. While the two business models are not exactly the same, they are similar as both companies seem to compete primarily on price.

Can anyone comment on whether or not this could eventually become a problem at Frontier? If not, what does Frontier do differently to keep this from becoming an issue?

thanks!

If you’re already worried about that kind of stuff before you get hired here this probably isn’t the place for you.

Totally this…
To further answer your question though, they are pretty much the exact same model.
What happened to our NK brothers and sisters, could easily happen at F9.
We certainly have had our meltdowns like every other airline. Just not anything this large or noteworthy. We are not immune from it though.

We are similar but there are some nuanced differences. Similar business model for sure but the strategy of each airline is slightly different. Spirit seems to be interested in increasing frequency of flights and upselling ancillaries (wifi, big front seat, etc) whereas Frontier is pretty laser focused on reducing casm (truly no frills, more seats on a/c, up-gauging, lower frequency of flights).

You can kinda see it how the airplane orders look. Spirit is trying for 319 neos whereas Frontier basically dumped all 319's, and even decided to trade 320s for 321 neos.

The important factor here is frequency.... Our meltdowns may not disrupt the system quite as bad but it does mean leaving passengers somewhere they may or maynot want to be for an extended period of time...

As far as the meltdown is concerned, that's a possibility for any airline.

I believe what sets them apart is the customer service aspect. I don’t know entirely the finer details, but a google search shows much more complaints at Spirit. One suggestion googled offered, “Is Spirit the worst airline?” [emoji23]

This is certainly a helpful comment, and I appreciate you taking the time to enlighten me.

Background is that I have been hired by Frontier, but have also been hired by United.

I can drive to work at Frontier, United would require a commute. I really want to go to Frontier, I’m just looking for some thoughts on the long term outlook for the company.

I do appreciate everyone else’s thoughts on this subject.

Go to United and don't look back.

Frontier will be fine but your paycheck at United will be worth millions of dollars more by the time you retire.

I don't entirely disagree, but I do think that's pretty broad "one size fits all" advice. In my opinion, a lot depends on the OP's personal situation.

The "millions of dollars more" would primarily be a function of both a good number of years as a widebody captain and profit sharing. Profit sharing in any large quantity will likely not be seen for a long time, and depending on the OP's age, they need to determine how many years they'd likely spend in the left seat of a widebody. They also need to ask themselves, at what point would they transition to a widebody captain spot? At the first available opportunity, or sit on narrowbody captain pay for a good number of years until they could hold a line? Are they even young enough to ever be able to have a chance to make that decision?

Also, we're not out of the covid woods yet and business and international travel is still severely depressed. It's looking more and more like international travel may not recover for a very long time. If covid doesn't shake itself out in the next year or so, I don't think that some furloughs at the big 3 could possibly be out of the question. Of course that could apply anywhere, but considering the domestic demand, I would feel far more comfortable at the bottom of the list at someplace like F9, NK, B6, WN, etc.

It all comes down to life situation and adversity to risk for the OP. If they are young, unmarried/married without kids, and okay with rolling the dice on the possibility of being a furlough casualty then I would definitely say to go for United. If they have a few more gray hairs on their head and will likely never be a widebody captain for a good number of years (if ever), have kids and financial responsibilities at home, and want something slightly less risky then I'd say go for Frontier (the driving to work part is huge).

It's all about personal situation, not an all encompassing answer.

No arguments with what you said.

I realized after I hit send that I'm taking into account my personal view on the matter. Your mileage may vary of course.

I appreciate the thought put into your response. Age is a significant factor as I’m already 45, wide body captain may not ever be in the cards for me at United. Additionally, I have 3 kids at home and I think Frontier would give me more days around the house…

Very well-said.

I'm at one of the LCCs and would recommend this place (or similar brands) to anyone. I don't have my apps out anywhere else because the quality of life here is so good. That said, in this particular instance, the only reason I'd recommend give an edge to United is that they're hiring 12,000 pilots over the next decade. That, in itself, should insulate you from a long-term furlough. This advice becomes exponentially less relevant each year.

HOWEVER. Living in base is a game-changer for time at home and the ability to pick up premium flying if you want the money. If your aspirations were narrowbody captain at United, I actually think Frontier is a better deal in your situation.

I think TOGALOCK's analysis on COVID and what that may mean for carrier's with a large international exposure is very wise. I couldn't have said it better.

Those details are key. Without them I would have said United, no questions. However, given the details, I'd lean F9, honestly. Especially with the base at home.

I assume you’re in Florida. I’d hate to tell anyone not to go to a legacy, but this seems to fit the bill. Commuting is the devil, but a lot of our ancillary benefits/contract language is sub par. Prob can’t go wrong either way though, good luck!

while I don’t disagree with anything here, I will say one thing…. The only airline in that list that furloughed anybody last year was actually F9, they just didn’t call it a furlough — COLA0

Yeah and if you are retired Navy as I would expect then you have the O5/O6 retirement to offset the pay... Overall return though even on 20 years UAL will pay a boat load more... However driving to work is worth a pile of cash... Best days of my last Airline was POV on the Beeline to work instead of the drive then 2+30 flight... Best of luck with your choice...

Cheers

Can you explain the “boat load” more at United for me ? If he has 20 years left by the time he is in the left seat and maxed out at Frontier on the 320 is 270/hr. Anything over 82 hours is 125% plus 15% DC. 17 at United. So a 95 hour credit line for a maxed out United 320 Capt and a maxed out frontier 320 captain would be close. Roughly 26.8 vs 24.3 / month plus a 2% DC difference. Not marginalizing that, but not a “boat load “.

I am not saying you’re wrong but you are assuming his WB command at United into the equation here I am guessing but before he gets there that would be years of ca pay at F9 he would be missing out on. Again, not saying your wrong. Interested in your numbers that’s all.

You'll retire at both with a lot of money. Do what’s best for you and your family and where you want to be during the next outbreak.
United is a fantastic airline.

My buddy at American has ocean property to sell you in Nebraska.

United gets 16% DC, not 17%.

In March we get to 15% so we will only be 1% behind them. Living in base and being able to pick up a premium trip a couple times a year is more lucrative than commuting to United

American wasn’t in his list. He mentioned F9, NK, B6, and WN…. But American obviously furloughed, so fair point.

Thanks to everyone who has commented, it’s all good feedback.

From a longevity standpoint, do any of you think Frontier may be a bigger risk than United over the next 20 years?

I figure if both made it through the first round of COVID, either should be safe. Curious your thoughts?

I find it interesting that the thread is titled Frontier vs. Spirit and yet the OP has an offer from United & Frontier…..

To the OP, if you do have an offer from Spirit as well, I would actually recommend Frontier over us. We’re further along in our growth than Frontier, so the quick upgrade chances I would say are better at F9 than NK. If the recent meltdown has you dissuaded, it was most certainly NOT the norm. We do have regular meltdowns, but that last one was the most epic one I’ve had during 3 CEOs….

Also, commuting SUCKS! If you have the opportunity to drive to work (especially if it’s a junior base) TAKE IT!

Your relative seniority will be better at Frontier. Which will allow much more flexibility schedule wise. With flexibility you get soft credit pay. Living in base allows you to pick up premiums without giving it too much thought. Not going to lie, PBS makes it much harder to get soft pay compared to line bidding.

Can't really argue with UAs hourly rates. You can still make 300K+ at UA being in the right seat of a wb while working 12-14 days with commutable lines. However, I honestly don't know how long it will take to hold a like on a wb. Upgrades are short at UA, but how long is the reserve?

If you have any specific questions PM me. Good luck!

Lots of thoughts on this one.

Everyone is using year 12 pay as a comparison between UA and F9. What you're not mentioning is the huge pay discrepancy for the first several years as an FO. You're also assuming a very short upgrade at F9 or NK. Any of that could change on a moment's notice. The UA upgrade is based mostly on attrition, not growth. Basically guaranteed, long term. I'd say that if you're under 35, or even 40, UA is a no brainer. You'll likely have a shot at wide body captain for your last 5-10 years. Just pick up your things and move to a base. Your life will be a lot easier.

That said, the case for F9 is pretty strong here. Over 45 with kids? Life disruption is a major factor. Commuting definitely sucks. The ULCC's offer an opportunity to make up for lost time, if all the forecast growth pans out. In terms of system wide percentage, you could be in the best position at a ULCC. One more hiccup, internationally, and the legacies could be in trouble. At least short term.

The case for F9 and NK would be stronger with a significant increase to years 1-5 FO Pay. Profit sharing wouldn't hurt, either.

I recently went through a mid life career crisis, too. None of this is easy.

There’s more risk of a merger with Frontier potentially, and risk of base closure in general but people aren’t going to suddenly want to shell out a bunch more cash for an airport experience once every 12-24 months. The demand for cheap travel is never going to go away.

I’ve had a couple of Frontier 4-6 year captains on the Jumpseat recently commuting. They’ve been talking about how they can drop down to 60hrs half of the year and 70hrs the other half and that works out to about 18-20 days off a month and how it’s been a great part time job for them. Quick math put them at a little under $200k a year including the DC contribution to work a week to week and a half a month. I don’t know anyone at a legacy who can do that consistently as a commuter. Living in base you’ll have the option of bidding reserve in the hopes of flying for less as well. It seems in your case you’ll have more QOL advantages going to frontier living in base if you’re not willing/allowed to move the family to a United base.

Very fair and good discussion so far. All good points

I'm looking at F9 & NK even though I'm young enough to go to a legacy and have a solid career there. I think the QOL at the ULCCs are very good, particularly living in base. I value the time off and flexibility over the potential career earnings.

The ULCC is fascinating to me in that I think it has a strong outlook and huge potential upside. The potential limiting factor, in my non-economist rudimentary understanding of the industry, is that while the ULCC model has done well in Europe, Europe doesn't have a Southwest Airlines-like airline. That's not to say NK or F9 won't succeed in their growth plans, but the market is just that much more crowded. I think the disadvantage SWA has is that they're hardly "low cost" to the consumer these days; younger fleets, cheaper labor, and true ancillary revenue generation at the ULCCs gives them a true cost advantage over SWA (for now).

Add to that the rapid growth per se. Retirements are high at the legacies because a lot of the pilots there have a whole lot of longevity. Growing at 15% a (nonCOVID) year, most of the FOs and CAs aren’t even approaching the top of the pay scale yet, while many if not most legacy pilots went over 12 years seniority decades ago.

Even were payscales identical (and they certainly aren’t) the average personnel costs at F9 or NK would be considerably less than at the legacies.

I'll agree that the ULCC's have an enormous cost advantage over the legacies. It's embedded in almost every facet of the operation. How much more are you willing to pay just for a TV and a power outlet on a three hour flight?

However they need to invest in IT infrastructure and their front line employees if they want to have a chance at competing. Better communication and transparency with their customers would go a long way. A clean, reliable product is probably good enough for the vast majority of the flying public.

Great discussion here.

Regarding the F9 upgrade, another consideration should be the excessively steep rate curve at Frontier. Our 12-year captains were the only pilots brought into the pattern when our contract passed. According to APC the United A320 captain at my longevity makes $50.00 more an hour than I do. That is a significant amount of earnings and retirement contributions.

I would not trade rates for a commute, however, and it's a good job if you can avoid having to go to work to endure the bad joke that is trying to operate a normal flight. (Sounds like that's all airlines to some extent.)

Take the United Job. Can’t compare the two. I’m a F9 captain who had a class date at United. In the end I decided to stay here since I’m already in the left seat (~30% seniority) family, mid 40’s and home based. I still think the legacies are far better in term of potential growth, benefits, job security. I wanted to take the job and we shall see when I turn 65 if I made the right decision. I do love my job here and the people whom I fly with. Good luck with what you decide.

where are the legacies growing ?

Comparing the two airlines’ longevity based on the last year and a half isn’t fair. The only reason the industry as a whole isn’t wildly different is the PSP. Without it you would’ve seen real pain and it would’ve been a more fair comparison of each airlines’ strengths and weaknesses. My biased opinion is that without PSP Frontier would be in an even stronger position relative to United. As far as either airline surviving though I don’t think either is in doubt. United isn’t going anywhere. And the only way the Frontier brand disappears is with a merger/buyout and, while painful, that just means the pilots wear different uniforms, not file for unemployment.

without PSP we would all be under major pay concessions by now imo.

Absolutely. I don't think many people really ever thought through how bad things could have gotten if Congress didn't hand out billions of dollars to the airlines. They covered up an incredible amount of pain.

Since every airline received substantial support it's much more difficult to figure out which business model is really the strongest. I suspect that Frontier has a far more resilient business than United but with billions in free money we all survived just fine

F9
 

F9 has a TON of red-eyes. I would argue that we have the highest percentage of any carrier. Frontier is changing its model to run mainly one or two day trips. There are very little four day trips out there. This is absolutely wonderful if you live in domicile but not so great if you commute. While there is not a minimum daily guarantee at Frontier, there is a 5-hour per day trip rig. As a result anything longer than a 1-day pairing usually pays 5 hours on average. Because Frontier management desires around 150 crews per domicile, every new domicile will be a quick upgrade while ones that have been around longer will take much longer to upgrade into. I would think that we would be very similar to Allegiant that way with the exception that Frontier puts it's domiciles in large cities versus small ones. As a commuter, I would love to be able to bid my schedule down to zero hours on some months like at Spirit Airlines. A 70 hour a year minimum credit (6 months per year) here at Frontier seems rather high to me for a major airline. It's great flying shiny new a320 neos (all of which are leased) and to work for a company that has such aggressive expansion plans. Good luck!!

I think as an ULCC, having crews fly 82 hours a month allows for the fewest crews at the lowest cost... lowest training and currency costs as well. Training people and having them sit around isn't cost efficient.