Frontier Airlines Pilots Association - FAPA
 

It's official! The new representative of the Frontier Pilots is FAPA.

Bye-Bye IBT.

Now, FAPA has its work cut out for itself. Indigo will be a tough group to negotiate with. FAPA needs to be strong.

Congratulations! I'm curious as to how the infrastructure can work with just in-house dues supporting it. We looked into that option and it seemed to be impossible if/when the company stalled and we had to pay excessive lawyer fees... or to pay for us to go to court like we did last week to get an injunction. Heard that cost over $250,000.

(I work at Allegiant)

The strong showing of unity is a great start!

Long story short...the IBT demanded that FAPA turn over their bank account and all of their assets back in 2011 (I have a copy of the letter). FAPA said no.

Shortly thereafter some Frontier pilots suggested we dissolve the union and distribute the funds back to the pilots. This would have resulted in a distribution roughly equal to one paycheck. FAPA suggested otherwise.

A small group of Frontier pilots kept FAPA alive, on life support, with the hope (however unlikely) that FAPA would one day be re-elected as the bargaining agent for Frontier Pilots.

Today, that hope became a reality. It was an incredibly difficult journey through BK, the withdrawn bid by SWA, the acquisition by RAH, the SLI with RAH/YX/Lynx/F9, the sale of of F9 to Indigo, and finally the determination by the NMB that we are separate.

Life isn't going to be a walk in the park going forward, but we have accomplished something absolutely incredible. Congrats to my fellow Frontier pilots, you define the word Unity.

Over 90% participation in the 2011 representation election.

Over 90% participation in the 2013 NMB card Drive.

Over 90% participation in the 2014 representation election.

It doesn't get any better than that.

Lived thru Franke/Indigo years. Good luck. I wouldn't wish him upon my worst enemy.

Muy Bien, Frontier...very happy for you guys. Glad to see you guys back on your way to independence from your Regional oppressors.

Good for you ladies and gents getting your representation back. Hopefully we can separate our lists and go back to what we each do best!

And I really wouldn't wish him on a in house union with only 750 pilots paying dues. I really hope you guys can get some loans, cause I imagine Frankie sees this as a way to bankrupt a union and finally impose a contract of his liking. Good luck y'all. I know you've been through a lot already.

I completely support FAPA, and am happy we won. But if this nightmare scenario begins to unfold, can we later seek out representation with deeper pockets at that time? Or would it be too late at that point?

I've heard rumors to the effect that Indigo had discussions directly with FAPA, encouraging them to do all they could to win. Was this in hopes of working with FAPA, or was it in hopes of getting a union they could easily crush?

Probably both are goals of Indigo. I should think that they will work with the union up until they don't get what they want, then crush them.

Unfortunately, notwithstanding the whole Midwest seniority dispute issue and the backstabbing of 8 now 4 Midwest pilots who acted in their own self interest and lied, ALPA would have been a nice addition. Honestly though, you have to admit, ALPA, never really seemed to care enough to even woo or send an informational packet in the mail. Why should they get the votes then? There was really only one clear cut choice in this instance, FAPA. You just make the best decision you can and hope for the best.

Agreed 100% - I just hope we can be flexible and wise enough to do WHATEVER is necessary to preserve our work rules. - even if it means snuggling up with some not so savory entity. This is one case where I'm afraid the ends DO justify the means. I have a feeling if it got ugly, FAPA itself would fall it's sword to preserve the integrity of this pilot group - perhaps I'm naive.

ALPA
 

Make no mistake! ALPA was not, is not, and never will be the answer for anyone who is not Employeed by United or Delta. It's simple business and you can't fault ALPA or it's members. As a business organization it's interests remain with the representing the parties that bring in the revenue.

FAPA was and always will be the answer for the Frontier pilots. There will be very little to no question that they will represent noone else's interest than the F9 pilots alone. The answer to the lack of funding is partially solved by much volunteering on the part of the pilot members to accomplish many needed tasks. This has been the same evolution of many young professional organizations.

As a former survivor of ALPA antics I am very confident of the great start the F9 pilots have with their new representation. The way it is run and how well it is utilized is up to them.

Indigo doesn't work with any labor group- and any that are fooled into thinking they will are doomed.

ALPA isn't going to "chase you down". The pilots have to WANT to join. If you want the resources of the biggest and most effective pilot union in the world, your leadership needs to survey the members and then approach ALPA with a desire to affiliate. Being in and having a successful union is not a spectator sport.

Everybody needs to participate and get involved.

I wish y'all luck as an independent against Indigo. Any organization has warts, but to say that ALPA doesn't support smaller carriers is a lie. ALPA completely supported the Spirit strike, including bringing in ALPA Strike committee help from other carriers like United, Delta/NWA, FDX, and Comair. That effort was 100% successful.

The presence in DC on Capitol Hill and with the NMB is also much more in your favor with ALPA than with an independent. (Don't bother with the CAPA nonsense, nobody with influence knows what that is... But they definitely know what ALPA is and what they stand for.)

I'll be the first to welcome my fellow aviators at FAPA into ALPA.. We are stronger together than we are apart.

+1

If the rumors are true, FAPA pilots will be ALPA pilots in a few years anyway.

Lol, glad you have them back but don't forget they tanked the swa merge costing every single frontier pilot millions.

Wn tanked the deal my friend...
 

Wn couldn't get over the fact that the reverend b outsmarted the almighty Southwest machine in a basic bankruptcy auction. Instead of admitting a group of backwoods Indiana RJ operators pulled a fast one due to their lack of knowledge, they used the pilots as an excuse to pull the plug. There NEVER was a serious SWAPA offer, ZERO! Btw I am no fan of Bedford, but get the facts straight. Like it or not! The arrogance of SWAPA has pretty much made most F9 pilots GLAD to not be at such a place. Maybe the AirTran screw over wouldn't be enough proof to show what the F9'ers would have been in for. Glad to be back on our own, FAPA isn't perfect, but doing just fine....

yes! I'll get to fly with Sniper ;)

Can you back that up - perhaps with some inkling of the best offer that SWAPA had for FAPA? My understanding is that SWAPA's last and best offer was a staple and no job protection for the bottom third of the Frontier pilots that would have been furloughed (SWA only wanted something like 2/3 of the Frontier fleet). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are right, it was a staple job and every f9 pilot would have been better off. I won't go into details but let's just say you can't compare f9 with airtran merge and my best friend was a fapa rep at the time. Like I said, fglad you have them back vs what you have now but don't overlook the whole story.

Who is your best friend, because that isn't what happened. Have him PM or call me if he wants to know the real story.

...I can't believe the SWA story keeps coming up.

Here is the short short version,

4 hour conference call, agreed on lots of things in 4 hours including an agreement to spend the weekend together (FAPA and SWAPA) down in Dallas. FAPA traveled back to Denver, planned on heading to dallas that day but the auction for F9 ended when SWA pulled the bid.

For the last time, no one at FAPA said 'No' to SWAPA. SWA (the company) said no to the auction.

That is a fact.

Alright, I guess my friend was misinformed. Good luck with Franke, learn from the spirit guys.

What did that support consist of?

Like most emotional events there is a lot of disinformation out there.

The morning prior to the conference call the President of SWAPA assured the FAPA reps that there would be nothing like a staple and everything was going to be great for everyone. Later that day, one of the FAPA guys was online prior to the start of the now infamous webcast (audio and visual was live) and the SWAPA reps were displaying images of a stapler on a large screen via a projector while everyone laughed out loud.

Even though the SWAPA guys said one thing and proceeded to do the opposite, FAPA continued to attempt to negotiate. Surprisingly a lot was agreed upon during the short call. Everyone was in agreement that it was worthwhile to meet again and that was the plan for the next few days. No further meetings occurred. Finally, there were some claims that SWAPA "desperately" tried to contact FAPA the day of the F9 auction. Here is the one and only communication (via email, no calls were made) sent on 8/13 at 11:32:31AM MDT from SWAPA...

"I know nothing has transpired yet with regard to the SWA bid. I certainly don't think we need to have face time in the next few days if things are just status quo..."

And that was that. It is water under the bridge. SWA and SWAPA continue to do very well and I wish them continued success in the future.

With regard to Indigo, Franke, and the rest of the gang that will likely launch a full scale shock and awe attack on our CBA.

The core group of FAPA reps have been through an incredible amount of adversity over the past six years. A BK filing, a threat of 1113, a multimillion dollar unsecured claim, a post BK filing restructuring, a complete change of management, a post BK exit restructuring, another complete change of management, a loss of bargaining status, a simultaneous attack on our seniority by another union, numerous frivolous lawsuits attempting to seize our assets and returns on investment, a complete divestiture of the airline to yet another completely new management/ownership team, a re-designation of bargaining status.

Meanwhile we have carved out a fairly large potential return on our investment that can't be bargained. In other words, we have an investment that is managed by a third party investment team (that FAPA created) instead of a labor organization. Its value is dependent upon the success of an airline, so take that for what it is worth, but it can't be negotiated away.

Finally, our CBA is exactly as it was written pre-BK. It was never industry leading but we managed to protect all of the work rules (we have a pretty good scheduling section with incredible flexibility) and all of the pay rates snap back including two additional pay raises that didn't exist pre-bk.

Is FAPA the best thing ever? Nope, they suck sometimes just like everyone else. Has FAPA achieved some absolutely incredible things, against all odds, since 2008? Damn right they have. FAPA knows things will continue to be challenging and they are prepared to once again do whatever it takes to protect the careers and CBA of the F9 pilots.

...and this is exactly why they were re-elected! FAPA - battle bred.

FAPA is probably the worst union for us, except for all the others. :)

'SWA merge', thats a good one. I dont think there is enough lube in the world for the way swapa wanted to 'merge' with us. Every time I read a post like this, I thank god that somebody like you wasn't in charge of negotiating on my behalf.

Have you ever thought about writing a book to pass on some of your expertise?
You could call it:
"Acquiesce for Success: The cactiboss guide to high stakes negotiating"

or

"Heck yeah I grabbed my ankles and said thank you, they offered me lots of money!"

What rumor is that?

Merge with NK.

not gonna happen.
:rolleyes:;):rolleyes:

I wouldn't be surprised if Indigo had much bigger plans than a F9-NK merger because they do have much bigger plans.

I've heard a purchase of F9 by DL or UAL or AA. They can't train guys fast enough, the money they make in a quarter could buy an emerged F9, make indigo a pile of money and if it was UAL, the 3 carrier fight in DEN would be down to two, probably will full WN support.

Don't think franke will merge or sell till after he makes a pile of cash via an Ipo

Their ideas of bigger plans are solely about making money, and unfortunately they don't always align with pilot career aspirations.

I agree, they are not in the business of long term airline management. They make money and get out.