Descend via mach number until intrcptng 280
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 459
From a controller friend of mine.
The expectation is if cleared for the STAR (not to descend via, just lateral) and then told to “descend and maintain” an altitude where in the descent you’d intercept 280k then that’s what they expect you to do unless other instructions have been received. No matter where you are on the route, even outside of KOZAR. At a minimum the speed note applies to the entire STAR.
Makes since since the speeds and altitudes are separate parts of the procedure, speed is ultimately more important for separation.
Personally, I just verify if they want us to slow as published or just to make the first fix restriction.
If anyone finds a legal interpretation that contradicts this, let me know.
The expectation is if cleared for the STAR (not to descend via, just lateral) and then told to “descend and maintain” an altitude where in the descent you’d intercept 280k then that’s what they expect you to do unless other instructions have been received. No matter where you are on the route, even outside of KOZAR. At a minimum the speed note applies to the entire STAR.
Makes since since the speeds and altitudes are separate parts of the procedure, speed is ultimately more important for separation.
Personally, I just verify if they want us to slow as published or just to make the first fix restriction.
If anyone finds a legal interpretation that contradicts this, let me know.
#12
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,923
That's a given, and not in question, though the speed restriction does NOT apply outside the STAR and a flight is NOT expected to maintain 270 outside the STAR, unless specifically cleared to do so.
That is not the question, however.
The question regards a flight at the initial fix (KOZAR( listed on the STAR, at FL240, at 300 knots. If the cruise altitude is 300 knots and the airplane arrives at the STAR at 300 knots, the first fix showing a speed restriction is not KOZAR, but EEEZI.
If ATC intends that the flight maintain 280 knots prior to that point, specifically in this case the aircraft arriving at KOZAR in cruise at 300 knots, then ATC will need to include that speed restriction in the clearance, because it's not found on the chart.
A wise pilot will still ask if it's needed.
That is not the question, however.
The question regards a flight at the initial fix (KOZAR( listed on the STAR, at FL240, at 300 knots. If the cruise altitude is 300 knots and the airplane arrives at the STAR at 300 knots, the first fix showing a speed restriction is not KOZAR, but EEEZI.
If ATC intends that the flight maintain 280 knots prior to that point, specifically in this case the aircraft arriving at KOZAR in cruise at 300 knots, then ATC will need to include that speed restriction in the clearance, because it's not found on the chart.
A wise pilot will still ask if it's needed.
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 459
That's a given, and not in question, though the speed restriction does NOT apply outside the STAR and a flight is NOT expected to maintain 270 outside the STAR, unless specifically cleared to do so.
That is not the question, however.
The question regards a flight at the initial fix (KOZAR( listed on the STAR, at FL240, at 300 knots. If the cruise altitude is 300 knots and the airplane arrives at the STAR at 300 knots, the first fix showing a speed restriction is not KOZAR, but EEEZI.
If ATC intends that the flight maintain 280 knots prior to that point, specifically in this case the aircraft arriving at KOZAR in cruise at 300 knots, then ATC will need to include that speed restriction in the clearance, because it's not found on the chart.
A wise pilot will still ask if it's needed.
That is not the question, however.
The question regards a flight at the initial fix (KOZAR( listed on the STAR, at FL240, at 300 knots. If the cruise altitude is 300 knots and the airplane arrives at the STAR at 300 knots, the first fix showing a speed restriction is not KOZAR, but EEEZI.
If ATC intends that the flight maintain 280 knots prior to that point, specifically in this case the aircraft arriving at KOZAR in cruise at 300 knots, then ATC will need to include that speed restriction in the clearance, because it's not found on the chart.
A wise pilot will still ask if it's needed.
Here’s another caveat. What if you are given, from FL450, a “descend via” clearance, and your 3 degree descent has you intercepting 280kts outside of KOZAR? What then? It may never happen due to design, but I haven’t delved into the TERPS to find out yet.
I know how the FAA describes speeds, but the OPs specific question isn’t published anywhere I have been able to find yet. If anyone has a reference to this specific explanation, I’d love to read it.
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 534
One other thing - above you talk about speed being more important than altitude....I'd go the other way particularly if I'm going to have to break one, I'll chose to bust the speed
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 459
If I'm filed/cleared KLYNK 3...I'm going to program my FMS with a transition decent speed of 280 kts (probably while setting up for the approach during cruise) regardless of what FL I'm cruising at. On the arrival descent (either descend via or descend and maintain) I'll just let the FMS lock onto the transition speed of 280 without concern for where we are over the ground. Just looking at the STAR quickly though, it looks like you'd be well inside of Kozar. Hopefully I understood your question correctly? Also - everything Burke wrote is spot on as far as I can tell.
One other thing - above you talk about speed being more important than altitude....I'd go the other way particularly if I'm going to have to break one, I'll chose to bust the speed
One other thing - above you talk about speed being more important than altitude....I'd go the other way particularly if I'm going to have to break one, I'll chose to bust the speed
Just thought of something else. Going along with what you said you would normally be on the STAR descending if on the optimized profile descent, and you wouldn’t be able to maintain 280 at the top of descent. My theory is that that is why the first fix, in this case KOZAR isn’t speed restricted, even though it really is via a floating restriction.
#17
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 63
I hear you on that.. But I'm looking for the technical / book answer to this scenario. Is that note considered a speed restriction once you hit a published segment?
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 534
I agree with you on programming the FMS. But the original question was what if you are given an early descent, well outside of the arrival? Do you transition to 280 when you intercept it? Once you are on the arrival? Or by the first fix with a restriction? I have yet to have them leave me above where I transition to 280 until getting on the arrival.
Just thought of something else. Going along with what you said you would normally be on the STAR descending if on the optimized profile descent, and you wouldn’t be able to maintain 280 at the top of descent. My theory is that that is why the first fix, in this case KOZAR isn’t speed restricted, even though it really is via a floating restriction.
Just thought of something else. Going along with what you said you would normally be on the STAR descending if on the optimized profile descent, and you wouldn’t be able to maintain 280 at the top of descent. My theory is that that is why the first fix, in this case KOZAR isn’t speed restricted, even though it really is via a floating restriction.
Re your second paragraph - yes / agreed, the intention of the note is to restrict your speed a bit.
#19
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,923
In fact, the original question states that the example aircraft is arriving in cruise at 300 knots, and has not yet begun a descent.
The first published speed restriction is at EEEZI.
Again, the wise pilot will query ATC, and in fact, if any question exists, is required to query ATC.
If ATC desires a speed restriction prior to EEEZI, ATC is responsible to issue that restriction. In lieu of an ATC clearance to the contrary, the pilot is not responsible for a speed reduction prior to EEEZI.
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 459
The original question doesn't ask that.
In fact, the original question states that the example aircraft is arriving in cruise at 300 knots, and has not yet begun a descent.
The first published speed restriction is at EEEZI.
Again, the wise pilot will query ATC, and in fact, if any question exists, is required to query ATC.
If ATC desires a speed restriction prior to EEEZI, ATC is responsible to issue that restriction. In lieu of an ATC clearance to the contrary, the pilot is not responsible for a speed reduction prior to EEEZI.
In fact, the original question states that the example aircraft is arriving in cruise at 300 knots, and has not yet begun a descent.
The first published speed restriction is at EEEZI.
Again, the wise pilot will query ATC, and in fact, if any question exists, is required to query ATC.
If ATC desires a speed restriction prior to EEEZI, ATC is responsible to issue that restriction. In lieu of an ATC clearance to the contrary, the pilot is not responsible for a speed reduction prior to EEEZI.
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