rickair7777

NATO allies under-shooting their treaty-obligated defense spending is nothing new, and not surprising to anyone. Even DJT made a lot of hay about it.

Their spending habits have little relevance to RU's behavior in this case. But RU's behavior is probably going to have real significance on future EU defense spending (it already has). The reason they were slacking in the first place was because they fooled themselves into thinking there was no real threat, and that RU had joined the responsible community of nations. That even seemed like a reasonable assumption 20 years ago.

Excargodog

My very point. After the EU was unable to stop genocide on their own doorstep in the former Yugoslavia back in19, the EU themselves identified the requirement for increased defense spending and a 50,000 man European Rapid Deployment Force in 1992. The major EU political powers of the era -France, Germany, Belgium, and the Netherlands- all agreed it was an absolute necessity, but nobody funded it and it never happened. George Bush (both of them actually) complained to the Europeans they were underfunding their defense, as did Clinton and Obama.


This state of affairs long preceded the last 20 years. This has NEVER been about thinking that Russia was not a threat or that they had adequate forces to prevent things like the Bosnian genocide, they freely admit that in their own military and civilian budget documents, this has always been about not HAVING to pay the price because the Americans are doing it for us. That is absolutely clear in their own open documents. It was bad during the Cold War and it got considerably worse after 1990. And perhaps it will this time make a future difference in their defense spending but in a realistic real-time sense, that doesn’t even matter, because you can not make up for 30+ years of underinvestment in a short (5-10 year) timeframe, even if you weren’t crippled by energy and supply chain shortages. Most weapon systems are long lead time acquisitions.


https://tfiglobalnews.com/2022/10/25...-its-military/

MaxQ

METO, I think we are talking past each other. Talking about different things.

I will not disagree that aerial bombing almost always results in obscene levels of death and injury to people whose only sin is happening to live near the bombing.
I will not disagree that the USA should not have it's military personnel become involved in the Ukraine/Russian war.

However, I strongly believe that the USA should provide as much military aid to Ukraine as they can use. All with the full knowledge that the at-risk physical body wielding this aid is Ukrainian. They are the ones that are mortally involved.
This is a fight where there is moral clarity. Ukrainie people know what they are fighting for. They will NOT resubmit to being a colony of the Russian colonizer again. Even if defeated in the short term, there will be a generational resistance to this foreign occupier.
Despite the best efforts of DJT to destroy NATO, it has been re-bolstered by the current administration and is now in a position to prevent the widening of this war to the Baltic Republics. Kaliningrad is still on an island. Suwalki and Sejny and Lake Wigry still stand in the way of Pan Putin. Contrary to what some posters here think, they WILL fight any invading Russians. Like Ukraine, they will fight with or without Western aid. Even if defeated, they will not be conquered. I suspect the same of Litwo.

Neither of the 2 great powers have won a war since WW2 (I will except Grenada), even though they have faced supposedly weaker and more poorly armed opponents. At some point one would think all these war college trained experts, be they Russian or American, would reevaluate the premises they have of what is actually involved in winning a war. I am convinced that Ukraine knows what it takes to win. I am also convinced that Russian leadership hasn't a clue.

This is Democracy and Liberal values against Authoritarianism and Fascism. A world ruled by International Standards or Piracy.

Any Ukrainian is faced with the stark reality of Trotsky's quote: "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you"
This quote made me reevaluate my desire for pacifism as an imperative, and see the dangers of being an isolationist.
A Ukrainian, or Pole, or Lithuanian has no such luxuries as I have parsing the fine points of a Trotsky quote. They will fight.
"For our Freedom and Yours" are not empty words to them.

MaxQ

I think both you and METO mean Red Army in some sort of sarcastic intent. I just wanted to highlight that Putin is attempting to draw on the moral bank earned from WW2 when there is reference to the Red Army.
Some, unfortunately, buy into it.

METO Guido

True. You support the massive transfer of arms for this war. I consider it yet another breach of authority to provide for the common defense. It really pi$$es me off to be honest. Been digging graves for shady politics since the Treaty of Ghent, 1814.

Hubcapped

Ukraine officially announced they are going to press this winter. I think we will see the original lines (absent crimea) by summer. Russia just couldn’t get a handle on what limitless and unstoppable recon over your lines can do to you (amongst other things, but I feel this is the most salient point). I’m interested to see if the momentum can stay strong.

rickair7777

I suspect UR momentum will stay strong. All they really have to do is stay more motivated than RU, which doesn't look hard.

UR has better support and friends than RU, which is now relying on Iran for some high tech hardware. Maybe they'll buy some tanks from DPRK next Even PRC won't help them out directly.

Hubcapped

Christ can you imagine dprk tanks manned by conscripts? I hope at some point russia has the courage to just pull back and save everyone the heartache. At this point any loss of life is just a waste. Russia doesn’t have the ability to prosecute its strategic goals.

METO Guido

Which mostly means a lot of fresh dead to gawk at.. Putin or not, the whatever they call themselves now, Z army had better come out of this with something. No way they just turn for home & say oh well, we tried.

rickair7777

Yeah that's a problem.