Excargodog

Depends upon how one defines “environmental management” and the quality of its execution. In a worst case scenario, it’s not even group suicide, it’s group murder.

Superficial solutions from people unwilling or unable to do the actual research to separate fact from dogma may only rise to the level of negligent manslaughter. They don’t MEAN to cause the damage they do, they just weren’t up to doing a better job.

Excargodog

What a straw man argument.

Just because the majority hold an opinion does not make that opinion right. But that scarcely means someone needs to go to war over it. In my time living in Europe the majority opinion was that the US Marshall Plan to rehabilitate Europe after WWII was not altruistic at all, that it was a self serving thing for the Americans to reconstruct a market for their goods so Europe would become dependent on them.

They believed this because it is largely taught in their universities. And nothing has really changed about that to this day:

https://www.politico.eu/article/vlad...ting-from-war/

https://www.politico.eu/article/germ...runo-le-maire/


I am entirely capable of considering the EU ungrateful wretches who are too cheap to pay for their own defense without desiring them to be ruled by a dictator though.

Hubcapped

With the utmost respect, flag on the play. He’s a big boy and he can answer his own questions. If you read his comments he said exactly that. Not sure how it’s a straw man.

If I don’t agree with the direction of a democratic (I know there are a lot of terms here do for simplicity’s sake I’ll just say that) then I support a strongman autocracy. That’s what he said. Period. Full stop.

Think about that for a moment. Truly and utterly immerse yourself into that thought process, and I believe you would be terrified

If it’s not MY way I’ll ****ing burn it down. Are we five year olds now? We can’t compromise? We can’t realize we aren’t the center of the universe?

Every person that has died (to include Ukrainians) is staring at you scratching their heads. In the grand scheme of written historical record, we have only been able to break away from tyrants in the last 1%.

1% or about 70 years, Was when we finally broke the backs of arrogant selfish despots and I for one have no desire to go back down that route.

Flag in the play buddy. Let people answer their own questions please

Hubcapped

Superficial solutions?

Ok, how would you propose to reduce the pollution runoff?

Excargodog

Convince me the prize is worth the effort first. Are you seriously worried about Ammonia? First explain to me the detrimental effects of ammonia in groundwater and at what levels. You do realize these levels are set based upon the sensitivity of freshwater shellfish to Ammonia, do you not?



So how much food production are you willing to give up (which I might add translates directly into African kids starving) are you willing to give up to spare the fresh water mussel population in the rivers in an area that was originally undersea? Nothing in those terminal few hundred miles is an essential part of the lifecycle of the mussels. They have an entirely fresh water lifecycle that doesn’t require a population within the Netherlands at all.

So what is your acceptable trade off in dead African kids to avoid dead freshwater mussels? Because it makes a difference. Ammonia just isn’t that toxic to critters that have a liver or kidneys.

Excargodog

​​​​​​​https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31536283/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14587894/

hopp

Ah the irony, or ignorance. Here we have an open discussion and criticism of our governments programs, with Socialist proponents arguing in favor of more control. History tells us this kind of open criticism of government and their programs doesn’t work out well for participants in Countries like Venezuela, (former and failed )Soviet Union, China, North Korea….and a dozen other smaller ones.

Socialism is a veil for totalitarianism.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/totalitarianism

METO Guido

Socialism is sameism. Well controlled, totalitarian rule. What’s in progress here nothing but a taste of things to come. The problem with democracy is that it doesn’t pay without a bloody battleground as a parking lot.

Chillpill

I'm a little slow. Can you settle the political science and just tell us in your words what classical socialism is?

Hubcapped

First off, I hope you had a nice holiday with friends and family.

Now let’s get into a bit. Couple issues I have with your comments.

It’s not ammonia, but nitrogen pollution. There is a preponderance of information regarding nitrogen pollution that can be pulled from government sources. Ironically one of the most susceptible environments to nitrogen pollution is….drum roll….low land bogs. Couple prime examples here in the U.S if you want to do some research. One I found was in jersey and was pretty interesting.

You accused me of a straw man arguement despite me literally quoting what winged said, and you have yet to apologize or at least admit you were wrong. I am always willing to admit fault if it’s clearly laid out, I would hope you can do the same. I hold myself to a high standard when I think I’m wrong, and if you want me to take you seriously, I expect the same.

Back to strawmen, we have gone over dead kids in Africa for food…..it is not that simple and you asking me “how many dead kids…” is just plain sensationalism. Stay within a reasonable context and j will continue to discord. Start throwing embellished propaganda at me and I’m just going to walk(which of course may be just fine with you, but I’m here to just pass the time in between flights lol). Regardless the previous gentleman laid out how it’s not that simple. Either refute his well thought out rebuttal with your own, or don’t spread disinformation.

Let’s say however that you are right…starving children in 3rd world countries. Should the Dutch be required now to disregard science and the building pollution problem they face for any other country? You talk about socialism and rights and blah blah, but now you are cherry picking their right to manage their own land.

At the very least it does not seem unreasonable in my mind to understand that pass practices regarding industrial manufacturing of any product, may not be prudent going forward as the world gets smaller, ecosystems get more and more intertwined, and most importantly, science is just now using historical data to really focused on the impact of mass industrialization in the 20th century.

There is a middle ground

Lot more to discuss. But this was long enough. Cheers