Ukraine conflict
09-18-2023, 07:40 PM
#1331
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,211
Putin's trolls have brainwashed the far right very well I see. The "America First" garbage is exactly what Putin wants.
If the average voters knew how a large amount of materials we are sending there is literally covered in cobwebs and would not be used by the US Army even if they needed them, perhaps they would think otherwise. Now they just see a price tag, which is a cost sunk decades ago. These are items that have been stored for 20-40 years, which is exactly what the Ukrainian military needs. But the $Billions they are talking about is new replacement cost, not what they really are worth (as majority of them will not be replaced).
The alt right seems to think they could just take the $Billions and spend that elsewhere. That's not how this works.
If the average voters knew how a large amount of materials we are sending there is literally covered in cobwebs and would not be used by the US Army even if they needed them, perhaps they would think otherwise. Now they just see a price tag, which is a cost sunk decades ago. These are items that have been stored for 20-40 years, which is exactly what the Ukrainian military needs. But the $Billions they are talking about is new replacement cost, not what they really are worth (as majority of them will not be replaced).
The alt right seems to think they could just take the $Billions and spend that elsewhere. That's not how this works.
09-19-2023, 07:21 AM
#1333
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 10,616
https://www.npr.org/2023/09/19/1199503861/zelenskyy-ukraine-aid-republican-congress-shutdown-spending
An excerpt:
How Ukraine funding is tied to a shutdown threat
The Ukraine money is now stuck in limbo as part of a complicated fight over spending that is pitting Republicans against one another and the House against the Senate. Congress has less than two weeks to avoid a shutdown at the end of the month, and McConnell wants to pass Ukraine aid on the same timeline, but there is little urgency among Republicans."There's no national security interest for us in Ukraine, and even if there were, it would be trumped by the fact that we have no money," said Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky. His long-held opposition to essentially all foreign intervention once made Paul a fringe thinker in the party, but the rise of Trumpian, American First ideology now aligns Paul with a super-majority of Republican voters.
An August CNN poll showed that a majority of Americans, 55%, say Congress should not authorize more funding for Ukraine. The opposition is driven by a sharply polarized electorate, with 71% of Republicans opposing new funding, compared to 62% of Democrats who said they support additional funding.
Republican opposition rests on fiscal and foreign policy grounds.
"I agree that the Ukrainians hold the high moral ground and that [Vladimir] Putin is a thug that invaded a country, but why should we be paying all the bills for something, especially in a powder keg area like that? I think, again, it comes down to that we just can't afford to do that in the long run," said Sen. Mike Braun, R-Ind., who is running for governor next year
09-19-2023, 12:24 PM
#1334
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,211
Originally Posted by Excargodog
09-19-2023, 01:04 PM
#1335
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,184
Dr. Paul. Ophthalmology. Baylor, Duke med. Jr. Senator KY.
A CNN poll in August found a majority of Americans, 55 percent to 45 percent, oppose more aid to Ukraine, though that is split on party lines. About 71 percent of Republican respondents said the U.S. should not provide additional funding, according to the poll, while 62 percent of Democrats back more funding.
^^^Lots of idiots out there. Broke but sucking OPM down like a diesel 8 at the blast fence.
A CNN poll in August found a majority of Americans, 55 percent to 45 percent, oppose more aid to Ukraine, though that is split on party lines. About 71 percent of Republican respondents said the U.S. should not provide additional funding, according to the poll, while 62 percent of Democrats back more funding.
^^^Lots of idiots out there. Broke but sucking OPM down like a diesel 8 at the blast fence.
09-19-2023, 02:38 PM
#1336
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 863
Originally Posted by METO Guido
Dr. Paul. Ophthalmology. Baylor, Duke med. Jr. Senator KY.
A CNN poll in August found a majority of Americans, 55 percent to 45 percent, oppose more aid to Ukraine, though that is split on party lines. About 71 percent of Republican respondents said the U.S. should not provide additional funding, according to the poll, while 62 percent of Democrats back more funding.
^^^Lots of idiots out there. Broke but sucking OPM down like a diesel 8 at the blast fence.
A CNN poll in August found a majority of Americans, 55 percent to 45 percent, oppose more aid to Ukraine, though that is split on party lines. About 71 percent of Republican respondents said the U.S. should not provide additional funding, according to the poll, while 62 percent of Democrats back more funding.
^^^Lots of idiots out there. Broke but sucking OPM down like a diesel 8 at the blast fence.
1. Do you think Russian propaganda plays a part in our mainstream media?
2. What will be the geopolitical impact when the rest of the world continues to back Ukraine, but the US bails?
09-19-2023, 04:21 PM
#1337
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 688
Originally Posted by dera
Rand Paul has always been an idiot, and he makes no exception this time. "No national security interest"? Allowing a tyrannic dictator invade foreign countries, thus expanding their power by force is in the long run a huge national security interest. Allowing that will show China how US will not intervene, giving them motivation to retake Taiwan, will show Russia they can take some of the contested islands from Japan and so on.
My reading lists 3 levels that an intelligence agency has for it's 'helpers':
1. Useful idiots
2. Unwitting asset.
3. Witting asset.
While some are motivated by money/power/sex etc., many come to light by being "fellow travelers". A fellow traveler is one whose world views and sympathies align with that country's interests. Putin has become overtly racist, homophobic, strongly against democratic institutions and values, strongly anti-European/European Union/Europe-USA partnerships, and has embraced fundamentalism in relation to the Russian Orthodox Church and a celebration of past repressive leaders such as Stalin and most Tsars.
These evolving reactionary views that Putin displays align quite well with a similarly evolving reactionary Right in the West in general and the USA in particular, creating a significant number of ideological supporters in these Western countries.
There are many 'fellow travelers' in the USA. Some have become elected members in both the Legislative and the Executive Branch.
Our system of Government is not designed to handle a high level of corruption in two or more branches of Government. Especially when the branches become complicit with each other and have been compromised by a hostile foreign power.
09-19-2023, 04:21 PM
#1338
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 10,616
Originally Posted by Hubcapped
two questions, different flavors
1. Do you think Russian propaganda plays a part in our mainstream media?
]
1. Do you think Russian propaganda plays a part in our mainstream media?
]
2. What will be the geopolitical impact when the rest of the world continues to back Ukraine, but the US bails?
And increasingly, the sanction appear to be solidifying the so-called BRICS countries
So saying “the rest of the world continues to back Ukraine” is fundamentally a flawed idea. Much of the world doesn’t see Ukraine as a priority. Increasingly, the US population is saying we’ve given enough.
09-19-2023, 04:23 PM
#1339
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 688
Originally Posted by dera
Putin's trolls have brainwashed the far right very well I see. The "America First" garbage is exactly what Putin wants.
If the average voters knew how a large amount of materials we are sending there is literally covered in cobwebs and would not be used by the US Army even if they needed them, perhaps they would think otherwise. Now they just see a price tag, which is a cost sunk decades ago. These are items that have been stored for 20-40 years, which is exactly what the Ukrainian military needs. But the $Billions they are talking about is new replacement cost, not what they really are worth (as majority of them will not be replaced).
The alt right seems to think they could just take the $Billions and spend that elsewhere. That's not how this works.
If the average voters knew how a large amount of materials we are sending there is literally covered in cobwebs and would not be used by the US Army even if they needed them, perhaps they would think otherwise. Now they just see a price tag, which is a cost sunk decades ago. These are items that have been stored for 20-40 years, which is exactly what the Ukrainian military needs. But the $Billions they are talking about is new replacement cost, not what they really are worth (as majority of them will not be replaced).
The alt right seems to think they could just take the $Billions and spend that elsewhere. That's not how this works.
You are gentler in your criticisms than many deserve.
09-19-2023, 04:30 PM
#1340
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 10,616
Originally Posted by MaxQ
Shortly after the Trump/Putin famous no note taking allowed/no one but interpreter allowed meeting, Senator Paul hand delivered an envelope from Trump to Putin.
My reading lists 3 levels that an intelligence agency has for it's 'helpers':
1. Useful idiots
2. Unwitting asset.
3. Witting asset.
While some are motivated by money/power/sex etc., many come to light by being "fellow travelers". A fellow traveler is one whose world views and sympathies align with that country's interests. Putin has become overtly racist, homophobic, strongly against democratic institutions and values, strongly anti-European/European Union/Europe-USA partnerships, and has embraced fundamentalism in relation to the Russian Orthodox Church and a celebration of past repressive leaders such as Stalin and most Tsars.
These evolving reactionary views that Putin displays align quite well with a similarly evolving reactionary Right in the West in general and the USA in particular, creating a significant number of ideological supporters in these Western countries.
There are many 'fellow travelers' in the USA. Some have become elected members in both the Legislative and the Executive Branch.
Our system of Government is not designed to handle a high level of corruption in two or more branches of Government. Especially when the branches become complicit with each other and have been compromised by a hostile foreign power.
My reading lists 3 levels that an intelligence agency has for it's 'helpers':
1. Useful idiots
2. Unwitting asset.
3. Witting asset.
While some are motivated by money/power/sex etc., many come to light by being "fellow travelers". A fellow traveler is one whose world views and sympathies align with that country's interests. Putin has become overtly racist, homophobic, strongly against democratic institutions and values, strongly anti-European/European Union/Europe-USA partnerships, and has embraced fundamentalism in relation to the Russian Orthodox Church and a celebration of past repressive leaders such as Stalin and most Tsars.
These evolving reactionary views that Putin displays align quite well with a similarly evolving reactionary Right in the West in general and the USA in particular, creating a significant number of ideological supporters in these Western countries.
There are many 'fellow travelers' in the USA. Some have become elected members in both the Legislative and the Executive Branch.
Our system of Government is not designed to handle a high level of corruption in two or more branches of Government. Especially when the branches become complicit with each other and have been compromised by a hostile foreign power.
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