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- - Israel (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/144803-israel.html)

Call me crazy, but maybe both sides have legitimate and reasonable grievances and injustices that have occurred...and without acknowledging that peace is impossible?

It's an area of the world with many anti-hero examples.
I'm not sure the behavior and policy of Israel are indicative of peace or benefit the western world in any shape or form.

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Originally Posted by AntiPeter (Post 3707976)

your crazy.......
there is NO justification for terrorism and senseless killings

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueScholar (Post 3707819)

This is beyond f'ed up, but go ahead and make up a hypothetical government with policies infuriating enough to make you want to take up arms against a very capable modern military, and you'll see a checklist of Israeli policies.
- Literally lock you into one area and restrict your freedom of movement
- Gov't sanctioned poverty
- Restrict supplies and aid to said poverty inflicted areas
- Allow it's citizens to steal your land, destroy your livelihood and take your homes
- Drop bombs on your neighborhood from time to time
- Literally be a second class citizen with no voting rights and no representation
- Kill your neighbors with zero chance of accountability or justice
- Restrict access to your religion's most holy sites

Did I miss anything? It's interesting that many of the Israeli government's most fervent supporters in the US are the same ones screaming about how it's government overreach to mandate a vaccine or a slightly restrict which firearms you can buy, but have no problem with the Israeli government instituting the above policies. It doesn't excuse atrocities against Israeli civilians, but damn you couldn't create a better recipe for radicalizing enemies if you tried. If you keep your boot on someone's neck you can expect a reaction, and it's not going to be pretty.

Freedom House rate's Gaza's freedoms as an 11/100. Compare that to
Iran- 11
Myanmar- 10
China- 9
Russia- 21
Venezuela- 29
Cuba- 20
Sudan- 30
USA- 76

So if you ever think about how citizens in places like China, Iran or Myanmar should rebel against their oppressive government, you should 100% expect the people of Gaza to fight back too.

Look at the common thread amongst the lowest ranked places on Freedom House. It has very little to do with Israel and more with Hamas, PIJ, etc running the show. Pick any Muslim country and you’ll find low rankings. It’s just the nature of the Freedom House rubric.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thedude86 (Post 3707947)

Try being a Jew and walk into East Jerusalem. (Or other Arab controlled areas in Israel). See how welcome you feel, if you even make it out. Now try being a Muslim and walking anywhere you feel like in the entire country… you’re gonna be completely fine.

Just like a few other posters on here, you’re only seeing one side on the American media. Most Americans are completely clueless on what Israelis have had to deal with everyday for thousands of years, especially the last few decades. There’s a reason the so called “apartheid state” exists.

Even as “oppressed” as Americans are misled into thinking Palestinians are… they still have more rights and freedoms in Israel (a Jewish nation) than they would in many neighboring middle eastern (Arab/Muslim) countries. Especially women and anyone who identifies with LGBTQ.

they know more than you because they read about it. You’ve only been there regularly, have family there, and know the issue intimately but you haven’t read about it so take a back seat and let the armchair experts explain to you how you’re wrong.

I’m not sure if it’s uniquely American, but we certainly have a tendency to read a little bit on a subject and then believe we are the authority on it.

“The outside world can take nothing from you and cannot unhinge you, as long as you do not allow yourself to be disturbed. The events of your time remain impotent before you, as long as you refuse to take part in them, and the madness of of the epoch does not constitute a real danger, as long as you conserve yourself a purity of spirit.”

- Stefan Zweig commenting on Michel Montaigne

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Originally Posted by Thedude86 (Post 3707830)

Israel/Palestine has been a problem for thousands of years.

Since 1947, anyway.

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Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3708206)

Since 1947, anyway.

WTF? The Jews have lived in that region for thousands of years. Palestinians have generally been a nomadic people, and in fact 40% live as refugees in Jordan. Some as far away as Chile. Regardless, living together is the big challenge. I watched an interview, translated, of a family in the Gaza. There was a Palestinian news woman interviewing a family. A question was posed to a young child what she thought of the Jews. Her answer was they are dogs and pigs. A very big insult in the Muslim world. That is not inherent. These people are taught hatred from a very young age.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervis (Post 3708224)

WTF?

You don't know the history of Israel is a modern nation-state, do you?

Do you know where the schism between jews and arabs comes from?

Have you ever incorrectly used the word "anti-semetic," thinking that it means "anti-jew?" While it's often defined that way, and certainly much of the arab world is anti-semitic in that it is anti-jew, it is also paradoxically true that both jews and arabs are semites.

You're aware that the arabs and the jews are both semites, of course. Aren't you?

You're aware that anti-jewish literature and sentiment for a great many centuries has been far more aggressive and prominent from Christian sources, than from Islam? Did you not know that?

Israel is under attack by Hamas. What year was Israel established? If you guessed 1947, you'd be right. Give yourself a pat on the back. (UN partition in 1947, declaration of the state of Israel 1948). If you guessed that arabs, and specifically Palestinians outpopulated jews in the new partition by 2:1, you'd also be right.

Now--so far as us air traffic pulling back from the current conflict zone, that's a yes and no. Legacy carriers will pull back, but ACMI operators will see increasing frequency of travela and transport. Every time Israel starts lobbing rockets, someone has to bring those rockets to Israel. Been there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3708228)

The Abrahamic tribes that would identify as Jewish go back about 5000 yrs, where in the Pentateuch a legal, religious and tribal system is clearly described pre-history. If that source doesn’t work there is always the written tradition (written vs oral - written coming long after the oral) which exists through Dead Sea scrolls and other surviving fragments that date 500BC (2500 years). That was a still 1000 years -give it take a hundred- before mohammadist traditions became normalized in the region, bonding the disparate groups of nomads through more standardized religious norms, but, not a distinct, nationalized ethnic and state identity. Various diaspora’s and invasions left a true and permanent Jewish state to be desired but even this occurred under Jewish leaders at various times well before the idea of a coherent Palestinian state under normalized customs and laws existed. The point of this is that the use of 1947 as a starting date for a Jewish state as the starting context for these issues is massively flawed, as is ignoring the timeframe wherein Arab nationalism and charismatic leaders arose who used the Palestinian / Jewish issue to catalyze their people and lead them.

Reference the Merneptah Stele. Proves Israel existed over 3000 years ago. That’s all I’m saying. Gaps due to conflict do not negate Israel’s much earlier existence.