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Excargodog 04-01-2026 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by Hubcapped (Post 4018738)
this is not said in a negative tone:


they have the right to not be complicit in a war started by the US.

furthermore, when you publicly shame, cajole, or otherwise be unpredictable towards your allies, it is easily spun by media to influence the constituents of the politicians that make decisions in those countries. This is quite literally “reaping what we sowed”. ive stated before that there were valid concerns about nato, but we needed to apply pressure behind closed doors. Even a dumbass like me would know that you cant get what you want by publicly shaming other countries.

master strategist

We have been fighting FOR them for 108 years and have sustained a half million US casualties , rebuilt them with the Marshal Plan, and stood the watch on the Rhine and defended the Fulda Gap for the last 80 years, while they have let their own forces either to near uselessness. I’d say “a pox on the lot of them” but Wuhan beat me to it.

Hubcapped 04-01-2026 10:49 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 4018745)

But I will say that actually limiting our operations from EU bases and airspace is a pretty big escalation. .

I disagree. It is the only logical conclusion that the political apparatus of each state would come to. We have publicly shamed almost every country in Europe. The constituents don’t approve (just like you or I would not if roles were reversed i.e very reasonable human emotional response). Then the US starts a war without considering the ramifications to the economies of said countries. Add to that, the type of enemy the fight is picked with. Thus facing political pressure for slander, negative economic impact through strategic blunder, and the VERY real threat of attracting terrorist type reprisals, i would personally also deny US military operations to be facilitated in my nation.

you reap what you sow. This is subjectively a very logical outcome based on our own behavior. You cant be shocked when the dog bites you after beating it no matter how much you’ve supported it.

this could have been avoided and our objectives met with just a small amount of tact and actual political intelligence regarding controlling your behavior to play the long game and get what you want

METO Guido 04-01-2026 11:15 AM


Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 4018747)
We have been fighting FOR them for 108 years and have sustained a half million US casualties , rebuilt them with the Marshal Plan, and stood the watch on the Rhine and defended the Fulda Gap for the last 80 years, while they have let their own forces either to near uselessness. I’d say “a pox on the lot of them” but Wuhan beat me to it.

The sheer audacity. Betrayal scale chart topper. Frosts me stone cold. Strategy? DR Congo could take Spain down.


Excargodog 04-02-2026 06:09 AM

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An alliance is like a chain. It is not made stronger by adding weak links to it. A great power like the United States gains no advantage and it loses prestige by offering, indeed peddling, its alliances to all and sundry. An alliance should be hard diplomatic currency, valuable and hard to get, and not inflationary paper from the mimeograph machine in the State Department.
Walter Lippmann

METO Guido 04-02-2026 06:25 AM


Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 4018972)

IIRC, an Austrian corporal & frustrated painter set the whole thing in motion which ultimately culminated in creation of the Israeli homeland. Quite the irony. Operate overhead regardless. Paint leck Mich am Arsch under the exhaust duct.


Excargodog 04-02-2026 10:05 AM

https://amgreatness.com/2026/04/02/a...-the-iran-war/



NATO members are not legally required to join any member’s military operations that are not formally sanctioned by the alliance or not aimed at protecting the homelands of the membership.

But they often do just that.

Some NATO members joined the Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq on the theory that, in the post-9/11 environment, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein were dangers to all Western security.


They followed the precedent set by America’s 1999 intervention in the distant Balkans, leading a three-month NATO campaign to dismantle Slobodan Milošević’s often bloody ambitions of a Greater Serbia. The U.S. also joined the 2011 U.N.-approved, and French- and British-inspired, NATO “coalition of the willing” bombing campaign in Libya.

That effort proved a seven-month misadventure—especially since the targeted Libyan strongman Muammar Gaddafi had given up his nuclear weapons program and was desperately trying to cut a deal with the West.

When NATO members in the past have operated unilaterally to defend their own national interests, they have often called on the U.S., as NATO’s strongest member, for overt help.

For nearly 40 years, the U.S. had offered logistical, intelligence, reconnaissance, refueling, and diplomatic support to the French in their unilateral and postcolonial efforts to protect Chad from Libya and, later, Islamists.

During the 1982 Falklands War, a solitary Britain faced enormous logistical challenges in steaming halfway around the world to eject Argentina from its windswept and sparse islands.

U.S. aid was critical to the effort.

So America stepped up to help with intelligence, reconnaissance, the supply of some two million gallons of much-needed gasoline, and crucial restocking of Britain’s depleted Tomahawk missiles.

The American tilt to Britain prompted anger from most Latin American nations of the shared Western hemisphere, as well as from many Hispanic American citizens at home.

No matter—Ronald Reagan rightly saw the importance of solidarity with a NATO member and a long-time American ally. So he gave Britain a veritable blank check for American aid.

Currently, America has not asked NATO members to help bomb Iran—even though Europe, not the U.S., was in range of Iranian ballistic missiles, and soon perhaps nuclear-tipped ones as well.

Europeans are far more vulnerable to Iranian-inspired Islamic terrorism. They are more reliant on foreign oil from the Middle East, some of it passing through the Strait of Hormuz.

All the U.S. had initially asked for was basing support in disarming a common Western enemy that, for nearly half a century, has slaughtered American diplomats and soldiers and tried to kill a U.S. president and secretary of state.But most NATO members could not even offer tacit help. Some damned the U.S. effort as either illegal or unnecessary.

The American public watched the British waffle for days over permitting Americans to use their Diego Garcia base.

The Spanish banned American use of their NATO bases and airspace.

The Italians refused a request from American bombers to land and refuel at a Sicilian NATO base.Many NATO heads of state rebuked the U.S. to their domestic audiences while, in typical two-faced fashion, publicly offering empty verbal support for the U.S. effort.

The NATO response to an Iranian missile aimed at fellow NATO member Turkey was anemic.

Even worse was the pathetic British reaction to another Iranian missile launch at a British base at Akrotiri, Cyprus.

Yet a successful American effort in neutering a theocratic Iran was clearly of benefit to Europe. So is preventing the international waters of the Strait of Hormuz from becoming a toll booth run by the Iranian mullahs.Such passivity was in sharp contrast to the five-year-long Ukraine War on the borders of Europe.

Ukraine was not in NATO.

Ukrainian politicos and ambassadors had sometimes played an intrusive, partisan role in the 2016, 2020, and 2024 American presidential elections.

Nonetheless, there were urgent European requests for the U.S. to honor the spirit of NATO solidarity and to get across the Atlantic as quickly as possible to protect the territorial integrity of Europe.

Yet continental Europe is not intrinsically weak. The combined population of the European Union and European NATO members is around 450 million—a population more than 100 million greater than that of the U.S.

These same European nations enjoy an aggregate annual GDP of more than $22 trillion, 10 times the size of the Russian economy.

European diffidence comes on top of the perennial American effort to harangue NATO members to honor their 2 percent of GDP defense commitments—especially in the case of deadbeat Spain and Canada, who for years welched on their pledges.

Trump’s harangues were not what was undermining NATO.Instead, he ripped off a happy-face scab and exposed a festering wound of increasingly anti-American hypocrisy beneath.

If you wanted to wreck the alliance, there would be no better way than to follow the duplicitous examples of Western European NATO members


Excargodog 04-02-2026 10:28 AM


Originally Posted by METO Guido (Post 4018983)
IIRC, an Austrian corporal & frustrated painter set the whole thing in motion which ultimately culminated in creation of the Israeli homeland. Quite the irony. Operate overhead regardless. Paint leck Mich am Arsch under the exhaust duct.

I knew a guy early in my first career who had once flown out of Ramstein in a - let’s face it - executive transport squadron. Their aircraft were all unarmed - C-12s and C-23s mostly, although they’d also supported VC-135 traffic out of Andrews - typically Congressional “fact finding missions”. Their executive transport and support of Congressional boondoggles took them damn near everywhere. He flew the C-12 at the time. He was always amazed that if they wound up having to unexpectedly weather divert to one of the neutral countries without prior coordination - or to France, or a few other European NATO nations - it was a serious diplomatic issue of a military plane “violating their territorial integrity and/or neutral status” that it would take the State Department a couple of days, a lot of paperwork, and maybe a diplomatic dinner or two to smooth out. Conversely, if they had to divert into Yugoslavia - nominally allied with the OTHER side of the “Iron Curtain” they’d park them in transient parking next to a MiG as likely as not, refuel them - charged to the aircraft’s identiplate - and have them on their way without anything more official than the fuel receipt.

METO Guido 04-02-2026 11:45 AM


Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 4019081)
I knew a guy early in my first career who had once flown out of Ramstein in a - let’s face it - executive transport squadron. Their aircraft were all unarmed - C-12s and C-23s mostly, although they’d also supported VC-135 traffic out of Andrews - typically Congressional “fact finding missions”. Their executive transport and support of Congressional boondoggles took them damn near everywhere. He flew the C-12 at the time. He was always amazed that if they wound up having to unexpectedly weather divert to one of the neutral countries without prior coordination - or to France, or a few other European NATO nations - it was a serious diplomatic issue of a military plane “violating their territorial integrity and/or neutral status” that it would take the State Department a couple of days, a lot of paperwork, and maybe a diplomatic dinner or two to smooth out. Conversely, if they had to divert into Yugoslavia - nominally allied with the OTHER side of the “Iron Curtain” they’d park them in transient parking next to a MiG as likely as not, refuel them - charged to the aircraft’s identiplate - and have them on their way without anything more official than the fuel receipt.

Don Rumsfeld reflected on this extensively in his autobiography. As you well know, he was youngest and oldest defense secretary serving under both Nixon & Bush 43. Bombing campaigns are historically sales busters for most companies not into fuel/arms contracting, short sales, prosthetic limbs or memorial services. But they can and do work. Can. While at the same time sparing deployment of precious, vulnerable ground units. If I were doing business in Iran, judging solely on the action so far, sure looks a lot like final notice to me.



Excargodog 04-02-2026 11:53 AM


Originally Posted by METO Guido (Post 4019101)
Don Rumsfeld reflected on this extensively in his autobiography. As you well know, he was youngest and oldest defense secretary serving under both Nixon & Bush 43. Bombing campaigns are historically sales busters for most companies not into fuel/arms contracting, short sales, prosthetic limbs or memorial services. But they can and do work. Can. While at the same time sparing deployment of precious, vulnerable ground units. If I were doing business in Iran, judging solely on the action so far, sure looks a lot like final notice to me.

At some time the temptation will be great to just bomb Kharg Island and Iran’s other occupied islands in the strait, take out their oil fields, and simply destroy them economically for a decade or two. Making atomic bombs is too expensive for a nation that’s starving and unable to feed its population. Then lather, rinse, and repeat as necessary.

Everyone has a purpose in life if only as an object lesson for others.

JamesNoBrakes 04-03-2026 07:16 PM


Originally Posted by METO Guido (Post 4018983)
IIRC, an Austrian corporal & frustrated painter set the whole thing in motion which ultimately culminated in creation of the Israeli homeland.

It's never too late to do the right thing.


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