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Free Beer
I was recently called a censor for removing a post that very clearly violated the forum rules. I've been called worse, but because there may be some confusion about this resource, I wanted to take a moment to revisit the forum rules and a little background on the APC forum. As the site owner, I want to point out that Airline Pilot Central Forums is a private web site with Terms of Service (TOS) that allow us to remove any user or post for any reason. We've been through the first amendment discussion already, do a search if you need to, but this site is privately owned and your first amendment rights don't apply here.
That said, we have a history of giving users a very wide latitude to express unpopular opinions, waste bandwidth, and even have great dialog with other pilots. We don't charge a fee and we don't require you to look at ads, the owners of this site provide it as a service to the pilot community. Other forums look to the pilot group as a revenue source, not us, we pay thousands of dollars per year out of pocket to provide pilots what we intend to be a useful resource. We're not funded by a union, airline, or anyone else - it's two pilots footing the bill on their own. We're happy to do it and we not asking for donations, all we ask is for users to observe a few simple rules. Very simply stated, if users of this board can't abide by the terms of service they agreed to when they registered - go away (on your own or we're happy to show you the door). As for a self-policing community, this board is what you make it. Our TOS is written to keep the forum a productive, positive, and helpful resource. When the majority of users dictate that personal attacks and low brow dialog is the norm - that'll be the day we throw the forum kill switch and walk away. Users have the ability to privately report violations to the TOS and to publicly post a rebuttal, correction, or admonition (respectfully of course) to violations of the forum rules - again the forum is what you make it. I firmly believe that differing opinions are healthy, and sometime we might have to agree to disagree. When we disagree, I'd ask if you post here that you check the emotion, and keep it civil. Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Register' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index. Although the administrators and moderators of Airline Pilot Central Forums will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of Airline Pilot Central Forums, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message. By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws. The owners of Airline Pilot Central Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason. The owners of Airline Pilot Central Forums reserve the right to remove any user for any reason. Additional information you should consider when posting here: Site Administrators and Moderators have the final say in editing or removing posts from this forum. Abiding by the following guidelines will make everyone's experience of the forums more enjoyable. We're all here primarily to discuss the piloting profession; we all share in the good and the bad that this industry has to offer. Please use the "good neighbor" policy when posting to this site. If you wouldn't say it to your neighbor face to face, than don't say it here (and we are talking about a hypothetical neighbor that you like and respect, not necessarily your current neighbor). Topics Not for Discussion There are currently NO forums that provide a venue for discussing politics or religion. While DreamLaunch Media Ltd. and Airline Pilot Central embrace the diversity the world has to offer, these subjects often are very emotional and there are many different views. In our experience the wide range of views and emotions rarely contribute to a harmonious online community or beneficial contributions to the piloting profession. Content NO nudity or links to nudity is allowed, male or female. If you’re looking for porn, this is NOT the place. Any topic that is considered greater than PG-13, with or without images, will be closed and removed without question. User avatars or usernames with image content or suggestive phrases may be removed at the sole discretion of the site administrators. Security Any post that in the opinion of the site Administrators and Moderators poses a risk to security at ANY level will be removed without question. Loose lips sink ships. Commercial Offers - For Sale Threads - Crash Pads - Site Promotion The APC Forums are not for classified ads or a venue for webmasters to promote their web sites. Any solicitation, link, or promotion may be removed at the sole discretion of the administrators. If you wish to advertise on our forum please contact us to discuss affordable advertising rates. User Accounts Forum users are allowed one user account. Users posting under multiple accounts will be removed at the sole discretion of Dreamlaunch Media Ltd. and Airline Pilot Central. De-activating and/or canceling an account is as easy as walking away. User accounts without activity within the preceding year (365 days) will be deleted from the database. Discretion What is objectionable to one person may not to be another; the Moderators will use their discretion in this respect. The site Administrators and Moderators carry sole discretion, and their decision will be final. Please respect their decisions. If you have issues with any Moderator decision, contact a Site Mod or Admin through the private message (PM) tool. |
Hey, that free beer hook in the subject line is not fair.
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I still think you guys are too stringent considering you get a pass from the entire industry for your unilateral decision to publish everyones pay scale.
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public. I, for one, feel getting pay information out there for comparison is healthy but I am still a little bothered by the ease that my neighbors, family and anyone else can know almost exactly what I make. This may be YOUR site but the information with which you built the site is OURS. You used it without asking. I think you should cut us a little slack. |
Well, glad to hear I am not the only one being called names around here! I've been called a lot of things, but never censor. ;)
I don't know nothing about nothing, but would like to inquire as to the return of the Photo section. As I recall, there was very little, if any, acrimony over there. The last Safe Haven, if you will. Besides, I surely miss jungle's great photos. Mike, I don't profess to speak for HSLD, but I think he is referring to the behavior so ubiquitous in the forums, not the main APC website itself. I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong. |
Originally Posted by mike734
(Post 239694)
I still think you guys are too stringent considering you get a pass from the entire industry for your unilateral decision to publish everyones pay scale.
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public. I, for one, feel getting pay information out there for comparison is healthy but I am still a little bothered by the ease that my neighbors, family and anyone else can know almost exactly what I make. This may be YOUR site but the information with which you built the site is OURS. You used it without asking. I think you should cut us a little slack. |
Originally Posted by mike734
(Post 239694)
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public.
With that many folks involved with the contract negotiations (or union participating members/employees), there's not one contract that isn't available for the media or public to see if they know where to look or who to ask. If you don't want your pay info to be out there in cyberspace, find a job where the salary isn't negotiated for the masses. |
Originally Posted by FlyerJosh
(Post 239955)
Like it or not, if you work for a company that has a collective bargining agreement, your pay figures (and everything else that is in your contract) is going to be public knowledge- regardless of whether or not this site posts the info.
With that many folks involved with the contract negotiations (or union participating members/employees), there's not one contract that isn't available for the media or public to see if they know where to look or who to ask. If you don't want your pay info to be out there in cyberspace, find a job where the salary isn't negotiated for the masses. |
Originally Posted by mike734
(Post 239694)
I still think you guys are too stringent considering you get a pass from the entire industry for your unilateral decision to publish everyones pay scale.
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public. I, for one, feel getting pay information out there for comparison is healthy but I am still a little bothered by the ease that my neighbors, family and anyone else can know almost exactly what I make. This may be YOUR site but the information with which you built the site is OURS. You used it without asking. I think you should cut us a little slack. |
I appreciate the website. Since most companies have HOURLY wages, not annual salaries, your neighbors DO NOT know what you make a year. They may understand your minimum hour guarentee and be able to know the minimum you make a year, but not what you actually make unless you said you only sit at home on reserve and get the minimums- but then you'd have disclosed as many of the puzzle pieces as APC.
This website was a great help in getting near real time and accurate, even when free information out there when in the job market! I haven't been in the situation where I felt the need to hide my wages, but I've been in the gov't for 12 years where my baseline wages are known- not my tax status, per diem or other income... I don't want my 1040s public access- but folks knew what I "made" a year. |
All ATP
Commercial Offers - For Sale Threads - Crash Pads - Site Promotion
The APC Forums are not for classified ads or a venue for webmasters to promote their web sites. Any solicitation, link, or promotion may be removed at the sole discretion of the administrators. If you wish to advertise on our forum please contact us to discuss affordable advertising rates. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't see how my posts advocating ATP flight training constitute 'commercail offers.' Anyway. Good site. I didn't realize pilot pay was confidential. I always presumed even regional pilots were making 100K+ a year after 3-4 years on the job. I use to think regional guys flew cargo / prop planes in the military and the guys at the majors flew fighters. I didn't even realize pilots were civilian trained. I never met a single civilian trained pilot until I stepped foot in an FBO. I use to think flight training / airline career was so out of reach for the average person.How wrong was I? I can retire in Jan 09 and be working as a 121 FO by Jan 10. |
Originally Posted by HSLD
(Post 240071)
I'm not sure I follow you. Are you suggesting that we should allow dissemination of airline security info, slander, liable, porn, and other non-aviation related topics because we publish pilot contributed information?
As far as the pay information, surely you are aware of the controversy you started when you first published the pay information. The genie is out of the bottle however. I suppose that point is now moot.
Originally Posted by MoosePileit
(Post 240107)
I appreciate the website. Since most companies have HOURLY wages, not annual salaries, your neighbors DO NOT know what you make a year. I don't want my 1040s public access- but folks knew what I "made" a year.
Originally Posted by LAfrequentflyer
(Post 240126)
I didn't realize pilot pay was confidential.
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Originally Posted by mike734
(Post 239694)
I still think you guys are too stringent considering you get a pass from the entire industry for your unilateral decision to publish everyones pay scale.
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Originally Posted by RockBottom
(Post 240239)
Mike, www.willflyforfood.cc published payscales long before APC came into being. You can find pilot pay data on Pprune.org and Flightinfo.com in individual posts, so our hourly rates are out there.
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It may have been before my time, here, but I'm not aware of any controversy over pay scales being published. I think it's a good thing when we can compare individual contracts.
As far as politics, JC has the Lav. I don't see any reason why this site couldn't have a "politics" forum. Speaking for myself, I'm not the slight bit interested in political posts at an aviation site. I think it would be fair game to move threads that turn political in nature to a political forum, if we had one, and that would tick off those who weren't involved in the "political thread creep". I could see that as being a problem. |
I would be for a political thread aswell, but it is a whole 'nother ballgame as far as policing it. I'm a member of a motorcycle forum that has a political section and it can get very hairy and heated in there, but as long as you follow the rules it should be alright. Thank you guys for providing a great website, like LAFF posted above, before I joined this site I was very lost and uneducated about the industry. I now have a very basic grasp and understanding of the system and regulations. Thanks!!
Leonard |
Originally Posted by mike734
(Post 240172)
As far as the pay information, surely you are aware of the controversy you started when you first published the pay information. The genie is out of the bottle however. I suppose that point is now moot.
The web is great publishing tool that provides transparency over a wide range of subjects; bank loan interest rates, car prices, CEO stock options, and even airline pilot hourly pay rates. Sure the information was available before the web, but the web does make it easier to find. |
I’ve said this before and I guess I’ll keep saying it until I’m FedEx purple in the face: the internet is a big place, with a great many fora (that’s plural for forum, in case you are interested) on topics that cater to every personal whim and desire, including religion, politics, sexual orientation and that all time favorite, porn. Possessed of a free will and some intelligence, I could have chosen to be a member of any of them out there, but I chose APC instead, largely because of my friendship with a certain Alaska fella, and also because of my own interest in aviation,15 hours in my logbook and all.
And having been a member since May 2006, rightly or wrongly, I have become rather protective of it and its owners. The last thing I want to see happen is for this forum to degenerate into less than meaningful “discussions” at best and cat fights at worst. Now I don’t have any statistical proof, but many attempts have been made right here to discuss religion and politics, and you could count on the thread getting closed and members getting censured. I have to admit that giving this thread the “Free Beer” title was slick (yeah, HSLD! ;)), but I think it has generated some good dialogue regarding what APC is about. It is an aviation forum first and foremost, but it welcomes non-airline pilots as well. We’re here to share experiences and learn from each other. I am not interested in personal attacks (trust me, they are no fun if you are on the receiving end) or trash talk or prickly comments about another’s race, religion or gender. I resolved a long time ago to report these offensive posts. So, boys and girls, here’s some free legal advice: just do as Da Man says. Keep your nose clean. Play nice. Take a deep breath before posting. Everything will be fine! Or you could always go away. |
I've been a member of several other forums, most of which I've left because the political divisions became so defined that certain members shunned others who did not share their beliefs. The proponents of a political forum state that the hostilities will remain in said forum, but from my experiences, this has almost never been the case. Schisms carry over into the other forums and can permanently divide a forum.
That being said, I know that I have little say as to whether a "politics" forum is actually created, but I fear that it will be used primarily to vent. I'm interested in learning about aviation and developing good "forum" relationships with other aviators, and I don't want conflicting political views to come in the way of that. Needless to say, if a politics forum is established, I won't post in it. |
I hope that you keep this web site just as it is. The "other" one can get real nasty. Seems that every thing posted there turns into a name calling episode. This one is "Airline Pilot Forums"...seems that should give a clue to its content...If you want to talk and argue politics, go somewhere else....
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Originally Posted by Roll Inverted and Pull
(Post 240491)
I hope that you keep this web site just as it is. The "other" one can get real nasty. Seems that every thing posted there turns into a name calling episode. This one is "Airline Pilot Forums"...seems that should give a clue to its content...If you want to talk and argue politics, go somewhere else....
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...still waiting for free beer.
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Originally Posted by POPA
(Post 240498)
...still waiting for free beer.
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I think the post should read Free Beer Tomorrow
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Originally Posted by Slice
(Post 240493)
Interesting comment given your signature line...:confused:
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HSLD,
Sorry to hear some people are on your back. Just another case of no good deed goes unpunished. Please, PLEASE, don't change a thing. I started this flying thing a decade ago. Had I been able to find the information you provide all in one place, I might have saved a half a dozen years getting on track. Just remember, some folks just dont know how valuable the information you provide is. Thank you so much for your contibution to my (and many others') futures, JSH P.S. I think showing the payscales can only help us to win passenger support for increased pay (for crew members on both sides of the cockpit door) |
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
(Post 248303)
HSLD,
Sorry to hear some people are on your back. Just another case of no good deed goes unpunished. Please, PLEASE, don't change a thing. I started this flying thing a decade ago. Had I been able to find the information you provide all in one place, I might have saved a half a dozen years getting on track. Just remember, some folks just dont know how valuable the information you provide is. Thank you so much for your contibution to my (and many others') futures, JSH P.S. I think showing the payscales can only help us to win passenger support for increased pay (for crew members on both sides of the cockpit door) |
Keeping "everything" including "base pay" open and available helps everyone in the industry, including those in the military. This is what this site is all about. "Pilots helping pilots" Thank you HSLD and your co-founder. There are too many people out there trying to take advantage of pilots and you guys do a great job keeping this site professional and in focus.
I'll buy you and the co-founder a "free beer" and then some anytime! |
Originally Posted by Jakob
(Post 248475)
I completely second this! Great post!!! I strongly believe the information I gained on this site will help me make the right decisions later on.
BTW, concur also with the posts above about forums going downhill after political discussions are formally allowed. I've seen several where a rational exchange of differing opinion, while nice to have in that ideal utopic world, is simply not possibly with the heartless and uncaring annonymity of the internet. Even a serious but rational political debate ends up spriralling down to personal insults and attacks which contribute nothing to the discussion but to make everyone involved mad. |
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