stinsonjr

I am not sure which forum this would be most appropriate in, so I will post here and the Mods can move it if there is a better place.

My question involves accident investigation. This is an area that has always fascinated me. Does ALPA have a group of pilots that work on safety/accident investigation teams? If so, can someone tell me how this works and is structured? Does anyone know someone or has anyone on the forum actually served on an accident investigation? How many people are represented (I asume the manufacturer sends someone, the airline, ALPA maybe, the NTSB) and how do the groups interact? Is there in-fighting between the groups (manufacturer vs. airline, ALPA vs. airline, etc)? What are the things that work well, and what needs improvement in the process?

There is a thread in the "135" section about the tragic Caravan crash in Ohio. I believe one frequent poster here - cubdriver i think, works for a manufacturer. What response will Cessna have to this accident? Will they send engineers and pilots to help the investigation?

I have been interested in this for a long time. My Grandfather, at one point, was TWA's most experienced DC-9 guy. This was in the early 60's, after TWA first purchased the -9. He did the acceptance flights, then developed TWA's training for the airplane. In 1967 there was a mid-air in Urbana, Ohio in which a DC-9 collided with a Baron killing all aboard both aircraft. He was pulled off the line and sent to Ohio to be part of the crash investigation. I remember going through his box of stuff (he kept everything - big box full of data, testimony transcripts, etc) and it was incredibly interesting and sparked my interest in this. In fact, it was this wreck that caused the speed limits under certain altitudes in certain airpace.

Just would like to hear all the people here chime in - APC is a great learning tool and would love to hear anything on this topic. Thanks in advance.

FlyerJosh

ALPA does have a group of people that work on accidents. Each MEC has a safety committee that chooses a few select reps to be part of the ALPA go team in the event of an accident. These reps under go training in the various post accident processes over a course of time until they are fully qualified as go team members. These specially trained people (and often one or two others from the national level) will respond to an accident as the ALPA party to the investigation.

In addition to ALPA, there are many different parties in each investigation. They include, but are not limited to:

FAA
NTSB
Union/Pilot Group
Company
OEMs (Avionics, Airframe, Engines, Secondary Systems, etc)

Cubdriver

Cessna has a crash department staffed by pilots and engineers that goes to crash sites and hangars where the wreckage is stored and does research, labwork, etc. They try to determine a cause and they write internal reports.

When I worked for a large parts supplier they sent me as an engineer to perform a couple of crash investigations. I was supposed to determine if our parts could have contributed to the crash. It was not my primary job, but in such a company engineers know the most about the parts. Aircraft manufacturers have dedicated crash departments since such manufacturers are the collecting point for lawsuits. They have well staffed legal departments that spend a lot of money trying to defend the company against claims and on outside retained legal work. I had an almost unlimited budget for my investigations. If I asked for a company jet to go and paw through wreckage or schmooze with lawyers over wine to develop a case, that's peanuts compared to the potential settlements they would pay.

Crash work is morbidly fascinating, it takes an even disposition to stay focused when you are looking at someones demise. It also makes you more aware of what is safe and what is not, and all aircraft are not the same. At an actual crash scene access is limited to medical, fire, and law enforcement officials until the fires are out and the survivors and dead are removed. It's gruesome stuff, very few survive air crashes and fires are usually total. When the humans dead or alive are removed and the fires are out, NTSB and FAA reps take a ton of pictures and measurements. After that the scene is cleaned up by wreckage personnel, and taken to a secured hangar. At that point the engine and other parts may be sent off for analysis but most of the wreckage goes into a hangar.

I used to have a friend who worked for the Atlanta FAA and he would get in the staff car and drive out to crash scenes. There are usually a couple of crashes per week in an FAA zone. He wrote those FAA reports you may have read. He would investigate anything up to small jets, but big jets were out of his job description. Small 121 ops were included though, and he did the Air Midwest Flight 5481 Beech crash a few years back, where the trim limit was improperly set. If the topic was serious enough in terms of implications to other aircraft he would coordinate it with other offices of the FAA. Most crashes are due to pilot error but a certain number are equipment related and they get a lot of scrutiny.

HSLD

In the US, the NTSB will have oversight of an investigation and all other parties involoved are granted "party" status at the sole discretion of the NTSB. Parties to the investigation often include mfg., union, airline, FAA, ATC, etc.

The NTSB has an excellent track record in it's findings/recomendations and has the authority to ban a party from an investigation if needed. So basically, it's a team effort to determine what happened, but the NTSB runs the show.

stinsonjr

Do members of ALPA's Go Team work only an accident at their specific airline, or can they cross-pollinate by specialty. Example, if Delta crashes, but someone on USAirs Go Team has a specific expertise, is that person called, or is it only Delta working a Delta crash, etc?

Additionally, do the APA, SWAPA, Teamsters have their own Go Teams, orcn they access a larger union (ALPA) for expertise?

aero550

I googled up an interesting article you may want to read on the subject:

http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModu...DocumentID=401

stinsonjr

GREAT article. Thank you. You hear lots and lots about ALPA's effectiveness on contracts, etc. This is truly something ALPA should be proud of and that people should think about as well. What a great article.

HSLD

It depends on the resources that each MEC has available as to who goes. If a smaller airline doesn't have in-house resources then ALPA will find someone from another airline that can help. Much of the work is carried out by the Engineering staff which are full time ALPA employees.

stinsonjr

OK - money question. How are the pilots that work on the Go Team compensated while they do their work? How long is the team engaged - I know that it would vary depending upon the complexity - what I mean is this, does the team stay constantly engaged on the investigation while not doing any of their scheduled flying, or do they work for a month or so, go back to flying and then spend time as needed?