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Picken's plan?

Old 07-11-2008, 08:52 PM
  #11  
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There's no need to take that attitude.

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Yeah… Well, did I mention that I already have this dreaded RFID chip inplanted? Well, actually my dog has one.

I guess we're all gonna die now...

Seriously, this is about Picken's energy plan, please keep the North American union, RFID and other silly conspiracy theories out of this thread - it'd be greatly appreciated.
Whether or not you intended your initial response (to wrxsteve's initial comment about a North American Union) to be seen as smart and sarcastic, the fact is, you did ask the following question pertaining to the subject:
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
I hope you are joking for sure. First of all, what's that got to do with anything? This is about us, the US becoming more independent of foreign oil, not the US, Canada and Mexico[COLOR=black] combined. Second of all, why would we want to link a third world country, Mexico, with the US of A?
CE also asked the following question, posted after your's:

Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse View Post
and why would Canada want to link up with US?

CE
I merely suggested some sources of information that could provide possible answers to your questions. However, based on your responses, it is evident that you really are not interested in looking for information and obtaining answers at all; that is unfortunate.

If you want to keep discussion, such as, that pertaining to possible plans for a North American Union, out of this thread, then don't ask questions pertaining to that subject in this thread.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by FDXLAG View Post
No one is saying don't build wind farms. Most on the right are just saying if it was practical it would not require mandates or subsidies.
Don't nuclear plants also require a large amount of subsidies? Do fossil fuels also receive subsidies?

Last edited by Shamrock23; 07-11-2008 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:55 PM
  #13  
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I've been touting Picken's Plan from day 1 here on APC...he knows how to keep it real, still works hard at the age of 80.

I'm glad other people are considering and becoming familiar w/ some of his ideas re: alternative energy and getting out of the habit of sending 600 billion American dollars to foreign governments/business. It's at least worth a try, moving toward some more wind and solar in this country, save some of that oil for airplanes.

T. Boone is interesting in that despite of all of his financial success, he still sees himself as a geologist at the end of the day...heard him tell the economist joke the other day...a person becomes an economist because they don't have enough personality to be a CPA. Makes me chuckle every time.

Last edited by The Duke; 07-11-2008 at 09:56 PM. Reason: Atrocious Spelling
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:15 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by NZAV8R View Post
There's no need to take that attitude...
Well, I reread my reply and apologize if I seemed too sarcastic.

I was hoping to hear what you folks thought about the wind power plan but somehow it turned into a "North American Union" question/suggestion.

Since y’all asked though I might as well reply that personally I think Mexico’s way too corrupt and drug trade dependent (caused by our 'demands' of their 'supplies' ) to be seriously considered in any kind of ‘union.’
It’s similar to Turkey and the EU. The US government keeps prodding the EU to let Turkey in whereas to most Europeans that idea is simply crazy for numerous reasons. I personally hope that Turkey never becomes an EU member state and instead joins some kind of Middle Eastern Union. Not being racist or elitist, I simply do not think the EU or Turkey would gain from their participation.

Same applies to Mexico in my view, I hope that North American Union never materializes but if it does - I hope it stays limited to the US, Canada and maybe Québec (by then probably an independent country). Of course, I hope we’ll then have a referendum and keep Québec out as well.

Back to the story though, I think the wind power plan sounds like a win-win solution.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:51 PM
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I am from Europe and the only reason Turkey is not part of the union is because it is a Muslim country. To say it is because it is a messed up country is a complete lie if you look at the countries that we have approved to join the union. It is plain and simple, if Turkey was christian they would have been part of the union long ago. To me I think this is nonsense since there is a large amount of angry Muslims already in the UK and France but people feel happy saying no to Turkey even though they would crack down on extremism faster than the UK or France ever would do. I personally think that Turkey should be in the union and most people I know feel the same. The union is not just France and Germany and the sooner they figure that out the better. The way the union has been going was rejected by the Irish (the only country to vote on the new treaty) and now they need to change there close minded agenda.

But as a side note, there is no need for an North American union. Canada and USA already work together closely and Mexico would not add anything to that. But in my OPINION it probably would be better to try to switch some of the jobs in China to Mexico, who is a much better allie (spelling?) than China.
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:16 PM
  #16  
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Thumbs up Wind Power!

" ...I am from Europe and the only reason Turkey is not part of the union is because it is a Muslim country ... I personally think that Turkey should be in the union and most people I know feel the same... "

Well, I'm from Europe too and you're totally wrong when you say the only reason Turkey is kept out is "because is is a Muslim country.” Some 90% of Albanians are Muslims too and they're already applying for the EU membership yet no one seems to be protesting. I've lived in 4 different European countries and from my perspective the vast majority of people I'd talked to disagree with your sentiment.

" ...The union is not just France and Germany and the sooner they figure that out the better. The way the union has been going was rejected by the Irish (the only country to vote on the new treaty) and now they need to change there close minded agenda... "

So who is it or rather, which country’s leadership needs to "change their close minded agenda"? Is it Germany and France or are you talking about Ireland? Also, is that truly a "close minded agenda" or does it simply differ from your "wide-open minded agenda"?

You are correct that the Irish were the only ones to vote on the new "semi-constitution" and they also rejected it. According to the polls most Irish felt, among many other things, that the EU was expanding too fast and that it should put the expansion plans on hold for the foreseeable future; so are you saying the Irish are close minded now?


" ...Canada and USA already work together closely and Mexico would not add anything to that... "

Interesting... So I guess the Europeans don't want to let Turkey in because "they are Muslim" yet you don't think Mexico would "add anything" because... they are all Catholics? Right? You see, that's not logical either. Don't discount the view of the vast majority of Europeans (Gallup after Gallup) as “close minded” simply because their views are contrary to your personal beliefs.


Either way, I'd rather go back to the original topic - I think we should be building wind power plants all over the US!!!

Last edited by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE; 07-12-2008 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 07-12-2008, 05:04 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Shamrock23 View Post
Don't nuclear plants also require a large amount of subsidies? Do fossil fuels also receive subsidies?
Can't answer either of your questions. If I liked research I would not have become a pilot. I suspect the nuclear industry is capable of making a net profit for the semi private government agencies that run them so they may be subsidized but it is a wash.

I know that fossil fuels generate way more revenue for the government than they could possible be subsidized in a thousand years but then some leftist would say the US military is a subsidy to fossil fuels.

The point is if wind power or solar worked you would have people lining up to become the standard oil of wind farms, you don't.

The real point is when you have "experts" in congress making the decision you get mandates to use Compact Florescent Bulbs. I will bet, before the 2012, deadline the compact florescent bulbs are declared an environmental risk.
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Well, I'm from Europe too and you're totally wrong when you say the only reason Turkey is kept out is "because is is a Muslim country.” Some 90% of Albanians are Muslims too and they're already applying for the EU membership yet no one seems to be protesting. I've lived in 4 different European countries and from my perspective the vast majority of people I'd talked to disagree with your sentiment.
Albania has about 3 million people, compared to the 70 million people in Turkey which would put it right up there with France and Germany. Any poll I have ever read about shows that most Europeans are against Turkey joining. You tell me the reason so? They are a developed country, have a good economy, a large military. So then what is the real reason? If you look at some of the countries they have left join, Turkey is in a much better situation than many of them.

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
So who is it or rather, which country’s leadership needs to "change their close minded agenda"? Is it Germany and France or are you talking about Ireland? Also, is that truly a "close minded agenda" or does it simply differ from your "wide-open minded agenda"?

Yes Germany and France want it there way or no way. The idea of having a union is that everybody has a voice.

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
You are correct that the Irish were the only ones to vote on the new "semi-constitution" and they also rejected it. According to the polls most Irish felt, among many other things, that the EU was expanding too fast and that it should put the expansion plans on hold for the foreseeable future; so are you saying the Irish are close minded now?
Maybe? but then the French and Dutch must have been close minded in 2005 when they voted basically the same thing down. But that is what is great about the European Union, they will figure a way out to get this through somehow. Did you ever think that maybe people think that Europe is trying to become something that it will never be. European military? what is that a joke? Europe needs to take a good look at what is happening to NATO in Afghanistan right now. The same thing would happen if a European country was ever attacked, some countries would do something about it and some will stand by. They can barely manage to get helicopters for there peacekeeping mission in Chad right now.

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Interesting... So I guess the Europeans don't want to let Turkey in because "they are Muslim" yet you don't think Mexico would "add anything" because... they are all Catholics? Right? You see, that's not logical either. Don't discount the view of the vast majority of Europeans (Gallup after Gallup) as “close minded” simply because their views are contrary to your personal beliefs.
For one USA and Europe are too completely different places. You tell me some good reasons why Turkey a developed modern country has received so much resistance when they have wanted to join the EU for the past 40 years and maybe I will change my mind.

There is no need for a North America union and that has nothing to do with religion. Cheap labor is always going to get into this country through legal and illegal immigration, America is already a superpower, so there would be no benefits to a union. If Mexico had an economy that was somewhat close to America and Canada then maybe it would be a good idea, but even then I don't see any benefits. The idea of the European Union was that they are mostly smaller countries and to act as one would make them stronger.
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Old 07-12-2008, 10:39 AM
  #19  
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“ …Any poll I have ever read about shows that most Europeans are against Turkey joining. You tell me the reason so? They are a developed country, have a good economy, a large military. So then what is the real reason?... “

Wait a second; earlier you said the majority felt the way you did? But now most Europeans are against Turkey joining?

“ …Yes Germany and France want it there way or no way. The idea of having a union is that everybody has a voice… ”

“ …Maybe? but then the French and Dutch must have been close minded in 2005 when they voted basically the same thing down… ”

You are missing my point – neither side is close minded; they just disagree, pure and simple. If people smell the rat they vote the treaty down, does not mean they are close minded.

You say Turkey is a modern and well developed country? Well, try to leave the tourist areas (or military bases) and you’ll quickly realize that in many areas of Turkey, especially the eastern parts the standard of living is simply abhorrent. They make the Philippines look like Dubai. You keep comparing to Mexico but Mexico’s economy is tenfold stronger than that of Turkey’s. It is also more modern and democratic than Turkey has ever been (not necessarily an endorsement of Mexico’s progress).

However, that’s not the point, their quality of live should not be the reason they are let in or kept out of the union. It’s the overall oppressive society that would not fit in the European mold. Here are some quotes from an interesting article:

“Since shortly before the establishment of modern day Turkey in 1923, one journalist has been assassinated on average every 1.5 years. According to a report released earlier this year by the New-York based Committee to Protect Journalists, in the past 15 years alone, 18 journalists have been murdered in Turkey for merely voicing an opinion contradicting the status quo. Furthermore, up until the 1990s, only China had more "prisoners of thought" than Turkey.”

“As a country aspiring to become part of the EU, Turkey is obliged to observe laws spelled out by the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. But as Josh Calder, an analyst at Social Technologies, a Washington, D.C.-based forecasting firm, points out, "Turkey and Western Europe exist in different eras," when it comes to civil liberties.”

“Freedom of press and speech and attitudes toward women and religion in the public domain reflect an overall problem for Turkey: "When it comes to values and general outlook on the world, Turkey and Western Europe are decades apart," says Calder. "This phenomenon, which might be called dyschronicity, is even more acute if you compare certain parts of Europe to Turkey's Anatolian heartland: the time-gap between Sweden and some rural areas of Turkey is something like three or four centuries."

Full article: http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/article.aspx?id=1075

Do some people dislike Turkey simply because most if its citizens are Muslims? You bet ya, some do. However, the main reason most Europeans do not want them in their union is because they think Turkey is not yet ready to fully embrace democracy, equality for women and minorities, etc. Killing off 40% of the Christian Armenian population did not help; on top of that even discussing that genocide will land you in a Turkish prison. Remember, we are talking Darfur times 1,000 here; hundreds of thousands of men, women and children slaughtered. You think the Nazis ‘invented” the gas chambers? Think again – plz watch ABC News.

Now I do like the Turks as a people, I really do. I have been to Turkey 11 times in the last 18 years and have seen the gradual improvements with my own eyes. However, until they own up to their own murky history, they’ll never be able to be accepted as Europeans.

Turkey claims to be a part of Europe however, remember – geographically there’s only one tiny sliver of land that’s in the European part of Turkey and to complicate things even more, that sliver of land used to be called Constantinople and as you well know it was hardly Turkish then.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tionEurope.png

(well, might as well give this link... YouTube - Istanbul (Not Constantinople) )

They are trying to improve things and slowly some things do improve. However, like stated in the article – Turkey and the rest of the Europe are separated by several hundred years and that’s the reason Europeans want to keep them out, not because they’re Muslim.


“… The idea of the European Union was that they are mostly smaller countries and to act as one would make them stronger… ”

Nonsense – that’s what France and Germany want - the same countries you vilified earlier for their stance. Most EU countries simply want to make trading easier, improve education exchange, simplify communications, etc, etc. The minute you see EU turning into a ‘superstate’ with its own military, etc. you’ll see some EU states leaving the union. I agree that the military status in Europe is pitiful but that should be dealt with within each country or within NATO. No one has ever attacked EU because such a ‘country’ does not exist.


PS. Do you want to start a Turkey thread?


So in a nutshell - we need to build more wind power turbines!!!
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Wait a second; earlier you said the majority felt the way you did? But now most Europeans are against Turkey joining?

Original post,
“I personally think that Turkey should be in the union and most people I know feel the same.”

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
You say Turkey is a modern and well developed country? Well, try to leave the tourist areas (or military bases) and you’ll quickly realize that in many areas of Turkey, especially the eastern parts the standard of living is simply abhorrent. They make the Philippines look like Dubai.

You have a point, but seeing that Romania and Bulgaria were accepted into the EU, and countries like Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Albania, etc. are probably going to be joining, then I don’t see your point.


Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
You keep comparing to Mexico but Mexico’s economy is tenfold stronger than that of Turkey’s. It is also more modern and democratic than Turkey has ever been (not necessarily an endorsement of Mexico’s progress).
I have not once compared Mexico to Turkey. In each of my two posts I have talked about Mexico and the North America union separately.

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Do some people dislike Turkey simply because most if its citizens are Muslims? You bet ya, some do. However, the main reason most Europeans do not want them in their union is because they think Turkey is not yet ready to fully embrace democracy, equality for women and minorities, etc. Killing off 40% of the Christian Armenian population did not help; on top of that even discussing that genocide will land you in a Turkish prison. Remember, we are talking Darfur times 1,000 here; hundreds of thousands of men, women and children slaughtered. You think the Nazis ‘invented” the gas chambers? Think again – plz watch ABC News.
If you want to go and consider the past atrocities in Europe then nearly every country would be ineligible. Again see the list of countries that have joined recently and the ones expected to join in the future and you will find much more recent examples of atrocities.

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Turkey claims to be a part of Europe however, remember – geographically there’s only one tiny sliver of land that’s in the European part of Turkey and to complicate things even more, that sliver of land used to be called Constantinople and as you well know it was hardly Turkish then.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tionEurope.png
Maybe the Europeans should have told them that many years ago before they started having negotiations with them to join.

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
They are trying to improve things and slowly some things do improve. However, like stated in the article – Turkey and the rest of the Europe are separated by several hundred years and that’s the reason Europeans want to keep them out, not because they’re Muslim.
I disagree

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Nonsense – that’s what France and Germany want - the same countries you vilified earlier for their stance. Most EU countries simply want to make trading easier, improve education exchange, simplify communications, etc, etc. The minute you see EU turning into a ‘superstate’ with its own military, etc. you’ll see some EU states leaving the union. I agree that the military status in Europe is pitiful but that should be dealt with within each country or within NATO.
I agree, but I like how you said "Nonsense" to my quote which said "The idea of the European Union was that they are mostly smaller countries and to act as one would make them stronger." Not one time did I mention anything to do with military or superpower, I was talking about the original goal of the European Council.

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
No one has ever attacked EU because such a ‘country’ does not exist.
Yes correct, that is why there was no need to have that language in the Lisbon treaty. Again Europe trying to be something that it could never become. Too many different opinions, national identities, and past grudges to ever make Europe united. The Lisbon treaty tries to set the path to a united Europe even if they say that it does not. There is language in the treaty which says something like all members must respond to and give assistance and aid to any member that has been attacked.

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
PS. Do you want to start a Turkey thread?


So in a nutshell - we need to build more wind power turbines!!!
Ha, I think I am all set with Turkey.

I agree we need more wind turbines. A good example of how this is not going to do anything quickly is by looking at Cape Wind which wants to build an offshore wind farm off Nantucket, Massachusetts. They first applied for permits back in 2001, I am not sure if it takes this long normally for wind farms to get approval, but if it does take this long we are screwed. For anything to work they would need to pass some laws which would allow certain projects to bypass all the red tape.

Last edited by Shamrock23; 07-12-2008 at 12:32 PM.
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