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HELP NEEDED! Transatlantic Ferry C172

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HELP NEEDED! Transatlantic Ferry C172

Old 12-22-2008, 06:32 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by avanti View Post
I will have a sat phone, a personal locator beacon (apart from the plane's ELT), an immersion suit which I will wear up to the waist while flying, and a life raft. I intend to bring multiple water bottles, and a guy I talked to who has done this says to bring lots of candy bars and nuts (chewing evidently keeps a person awake better than sucking for example) and be ready to chuck that stuff in the immersion suit should the unthinkable occur.

Due to the increased possibility of icing over the northern route, some people not on this thread have suggested the southern route is better. This would mean 12 hours over 1500NM of water, as opposed to 7-8 hour legs with the northern route.

Someone else said there are some islands with airstrips west of the azores. What are the names of those islands? Are there instrument approaches? Whats the identifier for Lajes?

Yes I wish I could have company, experienced company with deicing fluid! But the plane is alreday 30% over gross.

Also does anyone have any advice on ICING. Another pilot who does this says with 3/4 inch I will be down to the top of the white arc, and with 1 1/4 inches down to 70 knots, in that case to descent to 2 or 3000 and melt it off, assuming temps above freezing at that altitude.

Does anyone know how to make position reports across the ocean? I heard every 5 degrees, or 2 hours.
I need more info. Thanks.
I think my first question for you would be if you have ever done a TATL crossing before? A lot of your questions suggest this would be your first time. I know at DAL as well as other carriers you must receive an ocean crossing line check consisting of several crossings before you are qualified for international ops. Position reports, theater differences, etc., are all gone over. And this is to become part of a crew flying turbine transport category equipment. You will be a crew of 1, flying in the winter in a single engine recip with no deice capability across the atlantic. I'd say step back a minute and start doing some risk analysis on yourself. Properly done, it could be the trip of a lifetime. I just am not sure I would do it solo before having done it with someone who is experienced in these ferry flights.
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:39 AM
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I think the last one went over on a ferry permit for taking off over weight due to equiment and fuel. Ice will not be nice since you will be at a higher angle of attack to start with, right? Also, if the wx turns ugly, you could get stuck for days (this time of year) out at one of your northern stops.

I'm just saying htis might not be the best time of year to experiment. I think some ferry companies send an experienced pilot with a first timer.
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:48 AM
  #13  
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I saw this job posted and thought about applying for it for about 3 seconds. Then decided I have no experience crossing the atlantic, in the winter, with no deicing capability, and in a 172 none the less. I remember the compensation being negotiable. I sure as hell hope you are getting a large chunk of change for doing this. I think it is a good idea that you are asking for help. And I wish you all the luck.

Make sure when you get back to let us know how it went.
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:51 AM
  #14  
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I'm gonna hang it out here on this one. All my comments one could take offense to. You must not have anything to loose. You must be single. There is a better way to make a living. You do sound young and you do sound like its your first time. I flew a trip in the states last thurs nite and experienced everything but an earthquake and a hurricane. The first leg was done in your altitude range. They are still trying to fix the damage to the engines and we (the crew) followed procedures and believe it or not avoided the really bad areas. We had system redundency. You have only one. And you are listening to a guy who says how much ice you can carry on an airplane that is not certified for ice. Please! By the way I dont want that much ice on my DC-9! Listen to DAL and box your 172 up and put it in 130hercdrivers back seat. It is not fair to the Coast Guard crews and Civilian Aircraft crews who will put their lives on the line to come look for you.

If I offended you and you decide not to go it was worth it to be a horses hind end to you.
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:53 AM
  #15  
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I second HercDriver130's comments. The weather in these destinations can change by the hour and the forecasts can be WAY off. Your divert options are limited to none (depending on the route you choose).

Just curious, how long can a 172 with 175 gallons stay airborne? I used a primitive distance calculator I found on google and the distance between St. Johns and Azores is roughly 1,200 miles. Assuming a ground speed of 250kts (not sure if thats even possible), thats about a 5:15 flight.

1. Before I did this flight, I would first make sure you are legal. I'd check each FIRs requirements. NAT PCO has a lot of good info for the North Atlantic.

2. Customs requirements, etc. Landing fees? ATC fees?

3. I would first get an inspection done and make sure she is healthy. Then I would do a practice flight and keep her airborne as long as possible just to make sure she can go the distance.

4. Safety equipment. I would have all the necessary safety equipment. You will only last a few minutes in the North Atlantic this time of year. Radios, beacons, smoke, signals, exposure suit, small inflattable raft. You can probably rent these from somewhere.

5. Have a backup for your GPS. Also, what is your backup if you lose GPS signals? Its happened to me before in big airplanes and we have a minimum of two antennas.

6. Weather. What are the winds. Do you have the comm equipment to get hourly updates on your destinations? Do you have anti-ice de-ice equipment? Are there clouds at the altitude you're going to fly? Can you make it if you have to decend due to icing.

If I had to do this, I would pick the route that flew over land as much as possible. Below is a chart for VHF coverage at 10,000ft. You can find this and more at the link provided above.

-Fatty

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Old 12-22-2008, 06:56 AM
  #16  
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I have flown the route in general aviation aircrafts. PM if you want. I work with a lot of ferry pilots. DO NOT fly a C172 across the pond until you reach the ideal season of May-September. Encountering icing is real and your options are very limited. You are already overgross weight and any ice accumulation and you will start going down. If you reach past your point of no return and you start encountering icing, you will have no choice but continue. We lost last year an experienced ferry pilot with icing off the coast of Iceland. He couldn't maintain altitude. He made a radio call, ditched the plane and was never found despite heavy search and rescue. Just read the following which happened also 2 weeks ago. Those are lucky guys: http://www.**********************/fo...x&cid=7&tid=52

To answer your question, with an approved ferry tank, I would fly Goose Bay - Nasarsuaq - Reykjavik - Wick but still within the proper season to minimize icing. You don't want to fly the Northern route (Blue Spruce) unless you have too. Fuel is bought by the drum in Iqaluit (55 gallons). If you need 4 gallons you will have to buy a drum and leave behind the rest. Fuel is very expensive and last I heard was around 20$ a gallon. I paid before the oil price went up 12$ a gallon.

When you ask your clearance from Goose Bay, they will give you an HF frequency (a primary and alternate frequency just in case). HF is required for the Middle and Southern route. It is not required for the Northern route. You will see on your Jeppesen chart mandatory reporting points by the coast of Canada and approaching Greenland. In between there is nothing and it is your responsibility to report every hour. This being said, report every 30 minutes. The best way is via 123.45. There are plently of airliners flying above who will do a relay for you.

Hope this helps. Cheers!
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:07 AM
  #17  
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Ice is bad news for a non-certified aircraft and not much better for certified ones either, but if you must here's a starting point-

AOPA Icing Quiz

They have some online courses there, also.
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:15 AM
  #18  
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"But the plane is already 30% over gross."
Well.... you now may be faced with a FAA violation, if you intend to take off like that. You really want to exceed that magical WT&BAL number by 30% ?

THINK .....think......think
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:25 AM
  #19  
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Thanks for all the replies. No, I have never done this before. I am a CFII MEI with 1200 hours TT. Yes, I am single, and 28 years old, and a woman! The only over-water I have done is between guam and saipan in a C172, and that's only a couple of hours.

Dont worry, I don't take offense to anything anyone is saying! I'm really interested to hear from all of you, especially people that have done this.

Yes, the plane has an approved ferry tank. It has a Export Certificate of Airworthiness, Radio Stn License, Flywire Registration, an FAA 337, and the Canadian form for flying a modified aircraft, whatever that is.

With the aux tank it has 175 gallons total of fuel. That's 17.5 hours of flight time, assuming 10 gallons per hour.

OK, so everyone I have talked to has said not to do this. Except for the people that have done it, and they say to do it, cautiously. One of those guys specifically told me a lot of old-timers will try to put you off it, tell you its impossible and not for the faint of heart. But that they are just trying to get the job for themselves.

I am not considering doing this for the money, but for the experience. If I want to be a ferry pilot and have no experience crossing the pond, then how the he## do I get that first bit of experience without doing something like this?? I have ferried within the US before, but every transatlantic flight job I apply for I get told sorry, not enough experience.

Yes, I know the plane is not approved into icing. But who out there has flown a 172 in icing and can tell me about it? I want to base my decision on facts, not just a bunch of people saying "Im not even going to tell you what its like because you shouldnt do it anyway."

I appreciate that opinion as well of course, but I would like to gather as much info from people who have done this as is possible. thanks.

BTW bubi352 I wanted to read that article (?) you sent but the link seems to be broken.
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:27 AM
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He might get by with a special flight permit subject to approval by the FAA. Normally it doesn't exceed 20%. This being said, it's suicidal to do it this time of the year. Looks like Boredwlife found this job posted. There is a reason why experienced ferry pilots are not doing it.
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