The Wrestler
 

Last night I saw the movie "The Wrestler" starring Mickey Roorke and I liked it. Mickey's character "Randy the Ram" reminded me of old washed up airline captains that I have met in my career just before they were pushed out at 60.

Watching my ex-coworkers struggle with facing the end of the rainbow only then to realize that they had no friends, family, money or anything else to return to was prophetic to me. They had given everything to aviation and in the process left behind wives, children and the ability to build a life.

I will never forget when one old timer swung by the company office to hand in his stuff and blew out of town in is sole possession a 1970's corvette stingray and six months of cash to live on. It wasn't pretty.

I did not want to end up like those guys. It is a good movie.

Skyhigh

Life stinks?
 

Sky,

There are millions of "Wrestlers" out there, and the vast majority of them are not airline pilots. You would have seen the same thing in most other careers, but with one additional tragedy: those guys never enjoyed what they did for a living. :(

That movie remind me nothing of the successful airline Captains that retired at age 60 that I know/knew. They are nothing like what you describe. They had enjoyed their time in the cockpit and airline world and after the career left with a sense of fullfilment and accomplishment. They also had happy wives, kids, and dogs. Guess it is all about the different people you met. You must hang out with an interesting group of people Sky. You seem to have flown in just about every possible type of aviation environment yet have never met ONE successful or happy aviation professional. Amazing!

USMCFLYR

LCC and Regionals
 

I spent my airline career at an LCC and Regional airline. I suppose that things are different at the legacies. (or at least they use to be different) Everyone starts out in aviation with expectations of becoming a Hulk Hogan but a lot of pilots end up like Randy the Ram. Flying is not like most other professions. It is closer to that of an entertainer or professional baseball player. Passion for the occupation can obscure long term damages.

I had one middle aged captain tell me that his secret was to go from start up to start up. As each one failed he worked to position himself for the next one. His life and career was a broken string of scuttled companies. I suppose that he was trying to find the next SWA. Maybe he will find it, however to me that is no way to build a life.

During my time at a regional I studied the guys who had been at the company for a long time. Each one of them had a story of their original dreams of making it to the big time. They had a job and seniority but they were not prospering. They were stuck at the regional and had developed an apathetic attitude.

To me for most this industry is a war of attrition. Every year the career wants another pound of flesh in order for you to remain in the saddle. Each setback demands that a pilot has to sell another portion of his life to the dream. Over time wives and children get left behind. Thoughs of retirement plans get washed away as each move, furlough or shutdown drains the savings account.

I can understand how a long time legacy pilot might not understand my perspective. To them the world is round. However on the outside aviation is not so comfortable. Pilots have to go through a lot to keep their dreams alive. At some point you realize that you just are not going to make it but often that realization comes too late.

There are two category's of pilots. Those who make it to the big time and the rest who are drowning in the hardships of life in the lower rungs. As time goes by it seems that there are more struggling pilots and fewer of the truly good jobs that are stable, productive and prosperous. As with Randy the Ram if a pilot is not careful and lets themselves get swept away without keeping an eye on the big picture then in end you could be left with nothing. I saw a lot of guys like that in aviation.

Skyhigh

Not what I would consider as successful. I don't think that most of them would have thought they were successful either. They may have earned a bit more and had four bars but, their personal lives paid a high price.

Another thing in the movie struck me as something I have seen in aviation. The Ram was hoping for a big "comeback". I flew with plenty of ex-Eastern Airlines, TWA and Continental pilots. Either they were laid off or left what turned out to be a good opportunity had they stayed. All they could do it seemed was to lament over the glory days and hold out for their big comeback. Right now most everyone in aviation is holding their breath for an industry comeback. However as with the Ram it never will be as good as it was.

Skyhigh

Well there it is. In the time I've been on the forum I don't think I've ever seen you acknowledge that someone might have a differnet perception than you on what successful means; therefore in your opinion no one can be successful so it is kid of a moot point :(
Second point - I think they would have said that they were successful. Well...since we aren't having to offer any PROOF here - I'll just take the counter argument just for the fun of it. ;)

USMCFLYR

Aviation
 

Aviation is different from most other professions. It is closer to that of a pro-baseball player. Passion can drive one well beyond time to hang it up. And, there is a price to pay for such indulgences.

Skyhigh

Pilots are different too
 

Absolutely correct. If someone wants regular hours, familiar surroundings, low entry cost, and freedom from risk, they should look elsewhere. It's not suitable for everybody, but this has been well-known since Orville and Wilbur flipped a coin for seniority.

Success
 

Success is a relative term. What is success in regards to aviation? Flying a big jet? Buying a huge house? A new CFI might consider me as a success in aviation given my accomplishments however I do not see it as such since I did not meet my goals.

In aviation you really do not know if you have been a success until retirement day. Few really are safe. A pilot might have 15 years of seniority by 45 years of age at the major airline of his dreams only to open the paper one day to see that everything he had worked for has gone down the drain.

Unlike other professions success in aviation largely relies on luck and circumstances. I was never very comfortable with that. Often a pilot never knows if he is the next Randy the Ram until it is too late.

Skyhigh

I agree
 

People need to know what a long shot this industry really is.

Everyday people are out there blowing a fortune on a fancy aviation college education and flight training on what really amounts to a thin hope that they will ever be able to earn the investment back. I can not believe that most pilots who sign on the dotted line to take out a 100K loan for flight training really know what they are getting into. When given all the facts what kind of logic would permit such a foolish commitment?

Universities and flight schools are not out there spreading reality. They are selling a lie and that is exactly my mission here and elsewhere. I believe that everyone has an interest in self preservation and if they are presented with the cold hard facts up front by people who are in the trenches they would make a different decision.

Everyone who signed a loan for flight training over the last five years expected to be flying for SWA within a few short years after flight school. How else could the accept such a punishing payment schedule and honestly expect to be able to pay it back?

Skyhigh

Yawn.

It still amazes me how much somebody so disillusioned and dejected can spend so much time talking about it Sky.

99% of the people in college are going into fields that have absolutely ZERO need for a college degree. College is the new high school. Tom hits the nail on the head. There are thousands out there that have the same stories of not making to their respective "big leagues" or whatever your definition of success may be.

Again, nothing wrong with making people see all sides and knocking the rose colored lenses out but you seem to think that because it didn't work for you it will work for nobody.

Which failed LCC did you run to for the fast/easy upgrade again?

That wouldn't happen to include not getting hired by AS would it SP?

As
 

Yes that would include not getting hired by AS.

Skyhigh

The Industry
 

Increasingly this industry isn't really working out for anyone. Most just don't know it yet.

I flew for National Airlines of LAS. And yes, I took a chance at getting a quick upgrade that did not work out.

Skyhigh

"Which failed LCC did you run to for the fast/easy upgrade again?"

Sky was an F/O at Horizon and left for a 757 F/O job at National. National tanked in 2002.

"Looking back I never really cared for flying the big stuff much and I don't like the airlines either. I had the most fun flying in Alaska."

Skyhigh 4/19/09

With the above said, is there any wonder Skyhigh holds the opinion of the career he does? Make perfect sense to me. What Sky has never understood, though, and fails to acknowledge, is that we each seek different things out of life and out of the career. What Skyhigh walked away from the next guy might have endured and found success in. To each his own....

Sky I appreciate your comments, I really do.

However, it seems you make the assumption that every college age kid jumps into debt, not knowing the truth about the Aviation biz.

Some make poor decision, yes. Not all.

I am also in debt, for flight training. No where near 100k, mind you... Yes the Flashy Flight schools, ALL ATP, COMAIR, etc etc... Are over priced. We have beat that horse till is is thoroughly dead.

You use yourself as a prime example of why not to into aviation...

Let me ask you this, Are you happy now? And honestly, if Aviation, had not worked out the way it did would you be where you are today?

Now, take me for example... College graduate, Double Major, Organic Chemistry and Physics. Scored in the 97% on the MCATS, and my GRE score was pretty darn good aswell... My IQ tested in the top 5% of the Nation, and I am a member of MENSA. I said all of that to say this, everyone wants something different out of their careers. Sure, I could go to Med school... I have had offers for interviews with just about every top school in the country, and the ones in the Bahamas are practically begging me to go there. Sure, I could go on and get my Masters, and the PHD. Go teach at a University somewhere. (I am getting my Masters Either way, but that is a side point) BUT, I love aviation. That is where I am happy. I took the courses I did in college, because they interested me. I dont love it, im interested in it.

I love aviation. No I am not selling myself short, it is simply what I want out of my career. You have done so many things that I am just alittle envious over, Bush flying, being the number one.

So, I will endure, the Ups and Downs, The never ending *Downward Spiral* the industry as a whole is in. I will take the 3am shows, and the Scheduling woes... I do this because it is what I want. America is the Land of oppurtunity, and everyone sees oppurtunity is different things.

Sure your dump supervisor may make more money, but at the end of the day, he still smells like, and works with trash. We use a saying in the Army, "If it looks like ****, smells like ****, well buddy.... It is ****." So yea, I would rather, put on my nice clean uniform shirt, with my three bars, my silver wings, pull down my Uniform Cap square, and low. Then I can walk into public, and say yes, I am a pilot. Go to the Airport, and say yes, I am a pilot. To me, the simple fact of being a pilot, is better than being a Garbage man. Who wants to be the dad, whose kid is ashamed to bring him to school? Not me. So what, if I may never have flashy cars, a huge house, or a supermodel for a wife... Monetary, and financial possesions, can buy alot, but not happiness... If anyone truly believes that, Then they are simply, and truly messed up.

I am very happy with my current Fiance and do not intend to trade her in... Yea her cyclinders may mis fire from time to time, sure she has some leaky seals... And Burns through oil like you wouldnt believe... But I love her.

What do I expect you to take from this? Well, Its up to you really. I know things did not work ou like you wanted. They may not for me, or anyone like me... But wouldnt you rather have tried? I mean you said yourself, you liked the Alaska flying, and never cared much for the big stuff.... Then why give it up? Find where you are happy, and Stay there...

In the end, thank you for not being, the "Aviation is great, easy and you make a ****-ton of money." guy.

The Wrestler
 

I thought the movie was just "ok", but......... my question is...... what do you guys think: Did he die in the end, or not? I guess I just don't like movies/shows that end with a big ? (I didn't like the finale of The Sopranos either.)

Information
 

Jay Dee,

Aviation might be what you want out of a career but what do you want out of life? My point is that aviation is increasingly making it harder to accommodate the rest of what most people consider as a full and normal life. It takes certain elements to build a happy life. Most people probably have a spouse and children in their future. A family needs stability, financial security and quality time at home. The demands of an aviation career are making it exceedingly difficult to meet the lifestyle needs of the average family.

I understand that not every college student is in financial debt as a result of their education and training. However, my main point is that they all have incurred high opportunity costs by virtue of a wasted educational opportunity in choosing an aviation degree. It is a debt against your future prospects in life. Not everyone goes to college to develop a career but at some point it is a good idea to think about your future. I heard on the radio the other day that the University of Idaho is now offering a major in "Fly Fishing Guide". I am sure that there is a kid who it trying to convince his parents that it is what he is interested in and wants to do.

You may be happy with your profession now, but your needs and perspective will change as you get older. I am happy with my new life. Aviation was supposed to help me to reach my dreams. Instead it was an obstacle. As far as I am concerned my entire aviation career was a waste. I went into it with a specific purpose and that was to make a better life for myself. All my classmates had the same goals. To that end aviation was a complete failure. It did not provide a better income or lifestyle and as we go into the future I can not see much of a hope of things getting any better.

People need to know what they are getting into. I hope that you have a plan "B".

Skyhigh

THe End
 

I think that if he did not die in that moment he was going to push it until the end came.

Skyhigh

I agree
 

I understand your point. Everyone is different. There are people out there who enjoy prison life. It isn't for me but for some it is great. My position is that aviation is sold to people as something it isn't. Tell them how many applications UPS has on file for the average job openings per year and you are starting to get the true story.

In your life all you see are wealthy pilots. In mine I see people who are desperately trying to hold together a decomposing dream. Flight schools, universities and aviation magazines promote the idea that "you too can be a UPS captain" but they do not fill in the heavily weighted down side. The investment required in years and money to get trained and educated is massive. I can not understand how anyone could accept the high level of investment unless they all expect to make a fortune when they hit the job market.

Everyone is different but most people have a natural interest in self preservation. Somehow the truth needs to be told.

Skyhigh

This guy is unbelievable...he hates the profession, but hangs out here ( for years) and gripes about it. Pick any topic...any...and he`ll try and turn it into a rant about a crappy aviation career.....I had a great career...enjoyed every minute of it (check rides and ground school excluded)...my son followed me into aviation..is a captain at a major and loves his job also. The only people that I know are airline pilots, both active and retired...they all love their jobs...must be sad to be this guy...his only happiness is trying to rain on everyone`s parade.

Aviation gave me much more than I ever thought it would. I started out as a USMC helo pilot, beefed up my fixed wing time through the CFI route and stepped up to flying for a commuter. Flying a Dash8 was my goal but will hang it up in the left seat of 767 in a company that may or may not survive. Irregardless, it was an E Ticket ride.
I've never envied the suits and their earthbound jobs.

With a career being a major life choice, and such a large factor in lifestyle. What you want for a career, and what you want out of life are irreversibly intertwined.

I think expectations are the problem. Anyone going into Aviation, should have an expectation set, not only with themselves, but with their respective families. The pilot, whether it be the Male or Female of the family, will miss Holidays, Weddings, Birthdays, School Plays, etc etc etc. It is no different for me, I routinely spend 15-20 months away from home. So for me, being away, is just a side effect of my job... My current job btw, is US Army, 101st Airborne, 1-502nd Air Assault. BLACK HEARTS BABY!

So if the individual sets up the proper expectations then they set themselves up for success. Nothing worth having is free... Everything worth having, is worth working for.

I understand you do not want everyone to make the same mistakes you did, but you have to admit not everything is bad...

I will write more when i get the chance, i have a 19:00 showing on base, hooray fory late duty!

Expectations
 

JayDee,

The thing about expectations is that the situation changes over time. I had expectations too and they were accurate for the time period that they were made. The problem is that over the last 20 years things in aviation have changed a lot and not for the better.

You will change as well. My guess is that you are a younger person. You will be making decisions that will effect you for the rest of your life. An older version of yourself does not want to get up at 3:00AM and would enjoy a little financial security. I hope you keep that in mind.

My point is that setting expectations and making plans in regards to aviation is not a strong defense against the future. As your expectations are lower than mine the next generations will be less than yours. You have already mentioned that you recognize that things are getting worse in aviation. I hope you have a back up plan.

Skyhigh

Nepotism
 

As a retired pilot I am sure that you have a good perspective as to how things were 20 years ago. I bet that you had a great career. In addition if your son is a captain at a major then my guess is that he is older then forty. He too probably got in just before things began to get really bad. It probably didn't hurt that his dad was an airline pilot either.

My point is that prospects for the future of our profession are not all that great. You and your son did well but how does that relate to pilots who are starting out today?

Skyhigh

Alaska
 

Someone mentioned that "if I was having fun at my flying jobs in Alaska then why didn't I stay there"?

I have had a lot of fun jobs in aviation however the lifestyle that comes with most of the funner jobs is unsustainable. Once I got my flight time I moved on to the next rung on the ladder. My goals were finite and they did not include living in a shack in the middle of nowhere Alaska for the rest of my life. It was fun but I got out of there as fast as I could. The guys who I know who stayed at those jobs are all single and without an estate. It is too painful to ask but I am sure that they all wish they would have made better choices when they were younger.

In college our professors were ex-airline guys. None of them spoke fondly about their years as an airline pilot. They always liked to talk about their glory days in the military or jobs they had prior to reaching the airlines. One profession in particular use to say that "getting there wasn't half the fun it was all the fun". In other words, don't expect to enjoy your time as an airline pilot. It is a job.

I did not expect to have fun at the airlines. I expected to get a job that respected me and my contribution to the company by paying a better wage then I could have gotten by delivering mail and provide a better lifestyle then if I hadn't gone through the effort. I did not want to get stuck at one of the lower rung "fun" jobs. This thread is in reference to the movie "The Wrestler". He got hung up in having fun and realised too late that he blew the best parts of his life. The same fate awaits those who don't move on when it is time.

Invest into your future. Pick a career that offers you some stability and market value when you are older. Your chosen profession should also permit you to have access to a normal life. What is the point of all this if you can not save money, buy real estate and hopefully raise a family if that is what you want? Aviation use to be able to commonly provide those things but, I don't see that as an reachable goal anymore for most.

Skyhigh

I think the problem is that Skyhigh had unrealistic expectations. When those weren't met, he became the jaded individual he is today.

I don't know what you thought you'd get out of the field, but I'm pretty much right where I thought I'd be at this time. Perhaps four stripes instead of three, but I still pay the bills and I'm happy doing what I do.

My expectations
 

My expectations were set in 1980. The world has changed a lot since then. Yours has changed a bunch just over the last 12 months and will continue to do so. Lets hope that you are not still wearing three stripes five years from now.

Skyhigh

Personally, with the exception of my present carrier, everone is gone, and I rode 3 into the ground, including a Major. But, with a little luck and a lot of work, my finances are secure, about half way to a good retirement funding with the same girl and completed the education of my kids without the wife working a day. I have enjoyed all of it, got to fly to a lot of interesting places in some great planes with pilots I mainly enjoyed.

Irregardless of profession, there are "Rams" out there and most of them owe their fate to personal decisions, which the movie quite clearly portrays.

SkyHigh, unless you are planted to make controversy, I have to agree with the negative positings regarding "what are you thinking" Move on, your writing appears obsessive and unbalanced-you trapped me this time because I liked the movie, but I will not read anymore of your negative rantings. Not everone makes it in aviation, every checkride isn't successful, sometimes the pain doesn't match the gain and you didn't make the final cut. Sorry, but thats my take.

The Wrestler got a new job:YouTube - Spun - Cooking Show - Ephedrine Dope in 3 Days

Different opinions
 

Sky says:
In over 20 years of being around military - then airline pilots - I have a different opinion. I know of only ONE airline pilot to switch careers and he recently moved to CBP; which I think is a great move and staying in aviation.
At the same time - I've never met a military pilot who enjoyed the airline flying as much as their military flying (the road getting there); but NONE of them hate their jobs the way Sky describes everyone he knows as hating the job.

Again - all the people I know in the airline business have been able to save money, buy real estate, and have normal lives (at least their definitions of normal lives; but then again these people have come from military backgrounds). Currently - the two squadron mates that are furloughed from CAL are looking to go back. I guess it works out for some and not for others. Sounds like LIFE.

USMCFLYR

If I am, so be it.

This career work's for some and for other's it does not and that is just the way it is and alway's will be .
Reality can be a new dawn for some when they attempt to raise the bar with unreasonable expectation's.
I found this out the hard way and it's called live and learn and some fall off the horse and get back on and other's fall off and stay off .


Fred

The Wrestler
 

Everyone is different. Hey, it works for some and not others. Don't have unrealistic expectations.

I believe that we all have reached my point. Randy the Ram lived his life to the complete neglect of the consequences. It is true that everyone is different but I believe that everyone needs financial security and quality human relationships.

The Ram lived his life in a self centered impulsive manner. He failed to do what was necessary to maintain meaningful relationships and obviously did not make financial investments in his future. I am sure that if you were to ask him when he was in his 30's if he liked his job he would have claimed that he did. Only upon reflection at the end of his career did he realize the price he paid for the life he lived.

I have seen the same things in aviation. Pilots often lay down just about everything to remain in the saddle and then are shocked at the end to discover that they are broke and alone. Spouses do not like to be left alone. Children can get use to not having you around. It is difficult in an aviation career to develop compounding employer value. Every time you take a new job or get laid off you have to start over.

My point is to periodically take stock of your life and of where is is going. Aviation demands a huge sacrifice and if not measured can lead to the exclusion of everything else in your life. If you are single over 30 and living in a rented apartment then maybe you should evaluate where your path in life is taking you. Some will be fine with that situation others may not.

I have seen more that one 55 year old bachelor captain get married in a panic to a flight attendant because they were afraid of life after 60. Only then to get a divorce at 59 and now hit 60 broke and unemployed. Randy the Ram was not happy with where he ended up in life. He failed to make the sacrifices needed to insure that his future was what he wanted it to be.

Skyhigh

Long Conversation
 

Years ago I had a long conversation with a guy who was a captain on a large piston transport category plane. He was in his early 40's never married and in a remote part of the country. He was living in a rented house because he never planned to stay with his company as long as he did, but he owned a nice car and motorcycle.

He claimed that he always though of himself as a family man and can not believe that he was still single. He was distraught that the airlines did not seem interested in his resume because it was all piston time. He had not amassed any large assets and was not able to save a lot. In general he was not happy with the path that his life was taking. I told him to quit, get a job at a regional and move to the city. Make the sacrifice and start over in more fertile grounds.

His response was that he could not quit. He had a good left seat job and was making enough to meet his needs. Overall in the moment he was satisfied and having fun at work, however when he took stock of where he wanted to be in the long run he knew that he was on the wrong road to getting there. In the end as far as I know he has stayed where he was flying a dead end plane in a situation that is unlikely to change his relationship status.

I know a lot of guys like that, having fun in the moment but building little else.

Skyhigh

Then I must ask, Is that no their own fault? I mean cmon! There is only so much one can blame on the industry, before taking personal accountability.

The wrestler messed up. He did. The pilots that wash out their saving, dont build retirement, and chase their *dream* to the bitter end... Are they not getting what is coming?

Sure, everyone deserves a shot, but there is a certain point when someone has to take *stock* and say well it didnt work, time to move on... The one that do not, then yes, they will wind up broke, alone, and old.

Everyone has to be accountable for themselves. Manage your assets carefully. The story of the old Airline Captain, where he trades in his car, his wife, and his house every time he gets and upgrade or divorce... He deserved where he wound up...

If you make regional pay, but live on a major budget, over extend yourself, and pinch pennies till they hit the limit, then eventually, they will break and you lose it all... So, to sum it all up for you. Set reasonable expectations, manage your assets, and do not be greedy!

If you do all of those things, with a little luck, and the grace of god, you may just make it... If you dont, follow Sky's advice, have a back up plan. Mine is the Military. Doest work for everyone, but hey I enjoy it.

Oh yea, and Sky, I may be young, but I have lived more in my years, than most people live in a life time. Do not assume, that every person under 30, is incapable of making decent decisions, either career or otherwise.

I'm raising an old thread, but I wanted to thank you for making me aware of this movie. I've seen it four times now, and it just never gets old. I see myself in Rourke's character :(
Excellent movie nonetheless, and thanks again for the thread.