bcrosier

Sorry, not accepting nominations for president - I'm looking more for a gig along the lines of benevolent dictator. Something with a title like "Most exalted one" or "Most excellent and kind one." Please let me know if you hear of any openings...

I fully agree it would take an act of congress or God. I'm holding out more hope for the act of God, since congress could never understand an issue in sufficient detail and focus the effort to craft something along these lines. It really would require almost a top to bottom overhaul of how many aspects of our system. Not a bad idea I would posit, but obviously one that is not likely to occur.

OK, now I must pontificate.

I am actually a Purdue grad - 1990, and was in the first class that did what at the time was known as the Diamond Honors course (now the Beechjet, in slightly different form). In spite of my stance on the 1500 hour issue, I am actually a tremendous fan on the sort of training you get at Purdue. There are tremendous advantages to going though a good program, and if you really learn and apply what is taught you will definitely come out with more knowledge than someone with a commercial from your average 14CFR141 school or local FBO.

[Parenthetical paragraph] Now, before the proponents of 141 schools and FBO's gather the pitch forks and torches, let me add this disclaimer - the biggest difference isn't really in the flight training leading to the commercial, though it is good training. The real advantage comes from the ground courses which accompany the flight courses, and even more so the follow on courses in the junior and senior years. That said, one would wise to carefully sift the wheat from the chaff in one's course load. Then evaluate the overall prospects for an aviation career and decide if you really need an aviation major, or if perhaps you should take the meat from aviation, and at least get a real viable minor in something else - but that's a whole other thread.

Now, all that said, I will partially agree with Sky on his comment:

A few hours in a 727 sim and right seat time in a King air is not going to make a difference. You need to spend the next ten years flying junky old planes in single pilot night IFR operations. Try crop dusting or flying the bush for a few years. The sad reality however is that none of that will help you get further as an airline pilot.

He's somewhat correct in that the 727 or CRJ sim time, 10-20 hours in the King Air, and 50-100 hours of jet time plus the commercial doesn't give you what you need to be in the right seat of a 14CFR121 airliner. It DOES give you a tremendous platform from which to gain that experience. You will have the background and training to apply a great deal of context to the experiences you will (or should) get in the subsequent years and hours. I don't even think you need ten years, but I do think you need more than one or two.

The training and education in the subjects you mentioned certainly helped me as I built time and gained experience, and the fact that I had that certainly opened doors and provided me with opportunities to gain that experience. Take advantage of that.

For example, a lot of people throw out the (stupid) argument that "there is nothing to be gained from flight instructing for XXX hours." What rubbish! As a new commercial pilot, I learned more about airmanship by attempting to explain it and teach it to others than I ever did from receiving the instruction. I also learned a tremendous amount about instrument flying teaching in a Frasca FTD. Hours logged - zero, experience gained - priceless.

Take the time to learn who operates corporate aircraft (your hometown may be a better place than near an aviation university - too much competition). Find out who operates a turboprop or piston twin single pilot, get to know that person, find out if you could possibly ride along - who knows where that might lead. As you do so, you will start seeing things beyond what you've experienced in the training environment. You'll start building your own personal "library" of things that do and don't work, things you will or won't do again, good and bad techniques, practices, and styles. Again, the education you've received WILL help in that process, as well as providing the basic aeronautical knowledge needed.

So, having provided a long rambling diatribe - my answer is yes, I would give some credit for that education, but only a limited amount. Yes Virginia, while it seems I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth - there is actually a method to the madness. In my perfect world, the guy without such a background is (in all probability) going to take longer to gain the experience to even be permitted to sit for the board exam (and you will get some credit for your experience to boot), but in all likelihood your still going to need at least 1000 hours and two or more years of active flying experience after your commercial to sit for the board - as I keep saying there is no substitute for real world experience.

I know non-121 entry level jobs are scarce today. To a large extent, that has always been the case, though I recognize that it may well be more acutely so now than before. That said, IIRC, when I graduated you were looking at a MINIMUM of 2000TT/500ME to not have your resume thrown in the trash at a regional. Competitive times were closer to 3000TT/1000ME, with multi time being nigh of impossible to come by. In contrast, 1500TT and virtually no multi time doesn't seem that onerous to me (sorry for being a curmudgeon on this one).

I'll also second another point that Sky made:

I also graduated from an aviation university. 80% of my graduating class never even got their first flying job. I had to spend the first five years or so living out of my truck at times and working multiple jobs before I got to a single engine part 135 outfit.
{SNIP}
If you could look into a crystal ball and see a similar future for yourself would you still do it? I know I would not.

If you are genuinely dense enough that you actually still want to get into aviation in this day and age, honestly the prospect of having to find a way to acquire an additional 1200 hours really shouldn't be insurmountable. Honestly, that's the least of the problems.

For example: I haven't really kept tabs on those in my graduating class - I do know that of my four closest friends, we've all actually managed to work in aviation. The smartest one of the bunch became a controller and is eligible for retirement in two years (at about age 47). The rest of us are flying, though we've all been unemployed more than once along the way. One friend graduated, joined the military, got out and was hired at United in their heyday. Furloughed a couple years later, back at greatly reduced pay at a regional - lost his house, called back only to be re-furloughed shortly after. He's landed butter side up flying corporate, but three states away from where his wife is finishing her degree (and where is kids are).

Sadly, Sky has a pretty accurate picture of where the profession is. I'm hoping against hope it can be salvaged, and looking at how I believe things should be (and what could help get us there). Sky has vision of where we may ultimately be headed. I hope he is wrong, but preventing that reality will take some real vision from the leaders of our industry, something which seems to be in rather short supply.

SkyHigh

The airlines do not want pilots. They want young jet prodigies and politically well connected new hires. If you want to be a pilot then go and fly the bush. However if you want a chance at having a life and of earning a living then get in line at a regional as fast as you can. The only flight experience that means much of anything to the airlines is part 121 Jet PIC.

There are no points given for taking the long road.

Skyhigh

Bcrosier and Airhoss. Advance in your careers to become the chief pilots at your companies and get me a job will ya? Change the system to one that values real pilot experience. You guys are our best hope.

crabinow16

bcrosier-

I appreciate your candor on this topic. I do understand that the aviation industry does suck but right now I think I am gonna stick it out jsut to see what happens. Right now haven't really found out anything else I would want to do. I am going to be finishing my CFI this summer hopefully in time to get a student for the fall semester. One of the things I have come across is the absolute lack of corporate gigs for people like me in Seattle. There are so many pilots there that even the ferrying gigs are struggling. I think I am going to try and stay out in the midwest and get an instructing gig for the winter and maybe go back to Nantucket next summer to make some money and hopefully get a job flying some charter stuff like last summer. We shall see what happens. I know this time requirement just doesn't seem to do anything except make the industry more selective. I just don't believe that anyone who has 1500 hours in small piston planes is anymore prepared in a flow and application of procedures than anyone else.

bcrosier

Forgive me for resurrecting this thread, but I just read something from a former colleague which made me think of this. It's not a question of having to pay attention to or mentor a newer pilot - I agree that is expected in any Captain position.

It is a question of does that person (the newer pilot) have the foundation and the resources to draw from and apply that mentoring, or are they simply occupying a seat? The quote which drew me to this was in relation to flying with Ab Initio copilots overseas. Several former colleagues have commented on their poor skills and inability to learn. The people making these comments are NOT against low time pilots - I know and have flown with several of them (Including the one I'm going to quote). They are very diligent, dedicated professionals who really want to see whomever they fly with succeed.

The PIC shouldn't be so absorbed with making sure the guy in the right seat doesn't mess up that something gets missed. THAT is what many are talking about here. Perhaps there needs to be a whole other approach to how flight training has been/is being done, but I maintain that there is still no substitute for actual aeronautical experience.

bcrosier

Sorry about the semi-double post. I tried to add some additional thoughts and the software truncated my original post.


Crabinow16 - I wish you all the luck in the world with your pursuits. If all you have is 1500 hours in a 172 then no, you won't be as well prepared as someone who has built 500ME or some other experience beyond just C-172. You WILL still have a great deal more to draw on than someone with only 240 hours SE and 10 ME, or even 50 ME. You learn and gain experience by doing, and the point I keep harping on is I simply don't think 250-500 hours provides enough of a foundation to build upon in a 14CFR121 environment.

To elaborate/clarify on the corporate idea: Don't think (and I didn't take your response this way, this is for general consumption) that you are going to start off in the right seat of a jet. The segment to target is someone who is operating a turboprop single pilot (or a single pilot jet if you're lucky). Find an FBO with a decent amount of this traffic, if necessary get a part time line job there to meet people. Make connections, let them know what you are interested in. You may only end up running radios (at least initially), but if you do a good job you are gaining someone in the industry who can provide you with connections and recommendations to other pilots (networking).

BOLD PRINT NOTE: Corporate aviation is very different than the airlines - customer service is an absolute top priority. You need to present yourself as someone who not only won't EVER embarrass the pilot in front of the passengers (in any way, appearance, behavior, comments, professionalism, the list is virtually endless) to gain their confidence to take you along. This may even include the ability to discretely disappear or be busy when the circumstances call for it (ie; the owner is having a conversation with the pilot that you don't need to be part of - don't just stand there, load bags, straighten the cabin, get the clearance, whatever). Social skills are at a premium in corporate aviation, more so than just the ability to nail an ILS.

Best of luck to you...