HSR motto...
 

Viva le captialisme! Down avec le socialisme!

For people who have trouble understanding the difference between the two.

Capitalism
:an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

Capitalism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


Socialism
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...0&t=1296217774

Were you one of the guys who looked beyond his nose and saw all that potential in ethanol?

Taxes pay for what the airlines use to function. Runways, taxiways, airways, GPS, ATC, FAA. If the money for all that didn't come from ticket taxes, it would come from some other tax. And, how about the subsidies that Boeing gets from US? $3 billion to $45 billion depending on whose spin you listen to. Think that reduces the cost of aircraft to the airlines?

Define had to bail out to a tune of 63 Billion. How much of that 63 billion went to pork projects? How much would the bailout have been if Davis Bacon were repealed? How much of the Gas tax is diverted to fund public transportation? The gas tax greases a lot of wheels and they arent all on automobiles.

I got to this part of the post, and decided to not read any further. I can't belive that people still think that it's airspace that is congested. You can only fit so many airplnes on a runway and on a ramp at one time.


Next thing you know, someone is going to start preaching about user fees because all that GA traffic that clogs up JFK.

Are ya familiar at all with spacing over the departure fixes in NYC?

Yeah actually I am. I still think it's an issue of not enough runways for airplanes to arrive and depart from/poor planning. Look at LAS for example. The controlers out there have a heck of a lot harder system to deal with than whats going on in the North East IMHO. They are trying to not only cram 121 operations into LAS, but also 91 and 135 operators. So, they run a system that seems to be GA flies one arrival, and 121 fly another arrival. This all into an airport that is hemmed in by mountains on all sides that don't have restriced areas. Sure they get snippy sometimes, but they are able to handle a very high volume of traffic, and in the summer time, they have to deal with nasty thunderstorms that pop up.

My point was that all businesses in this country indirectly depend on government taxes dollars in one way or another. The local barber relies on the local government to maintain safe, drivable streets so his customers are able to get to and from his establishment. The barber pays taxes to the town for that right.

I know that may seem out of context, but I feel it is analogous to airlines in defining what is and what isn't their responsibility.
All of those items you mentioned (Runways, taxiways, airways, GPS, ATC, FAA), in my opinion fall under the responsibility of our federal and state governments.
After the local barber gets done paying his taxes every year, is it still his responsibility to repair potholes, fight crime, put out a fire, and/or clear sewage drains when they clog?
At that point, the local municipalities are responsible, and those departments are funded through tax payer dollars.

Most airline companies pay millions to lease airport space in addition to the rights to takeoff and land on a regular basis. So indirectly airlines ARE paying to maintain runways and taxiways.

Add to this the following ticket taxes and fees:
Ticket Tax
Segment Tax
International Departure and Arrival Tax
Security Fees
Passenger Facility Charge

A guide to airline-ticket taxes and fees - USATODAY.com



In comparison to the Taxes and Fees charged on AMTRAK:
Absolutely Nothing!

"Unlike the long list of add-on fees, surcharges and taxes airlines pile on, Amtrak charges no extra fees — what you see is what you get. Here's what we mean"

Amtrak - Deals - Advertised Specials - Get the Best Fares and No Fees at Amtrak.com

Funny how Government-Owned Corporations get to lighten the tax/fees burden on themselves to help appeal to would-be customers.
Again, changing the rules to fit their needs.

The airline industry is self-sustaining, in the governments eyes, the more successful and profitable the airlines become, the more opportunities to politicians have to try and gouge the industry.
If you don't think that money will come out of your own pocket as we slowly eek towards profitability, then you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Even though the airlines as companies are private, they depend on government funded infrastructure. ATC, regulation, airports, security, etc.

Actually, to varying degrees, everything is directly or indirectly dependent on government funding...again, think infrastructure.

Fair enough. Sure, there is room for improvement in abuse and inefficiency. However, taxation in some form is necessary.

The airline industry in its fledgling years was also a disadvantage to itself.


Someone in the 20's and 30's could have easily said that about the airlines.

I see it as an investment in our country's future.

Passenger rail on that scale is not ready for privatization.

Not really. Besides, that is an inapplicable analogy. They're completely different animals. For starters, rail needs, well, rail on public and private land. Beside, I don't think any private investors are beating down the door yet.

High Speed Rail would indeed work in the US in densely populated areas. As for the marketplace, as is often the case, it is a poor indicator of what is preferred or good for society. I mean, does McDonald's make the best burger? Is it the healthiest option for a burger? Well, the "marketplace":rolleyes: says yes.

Given that HSR is not even available as an alternative, one cannot say that with any intellectual honesty that air travel is preferred on all routes. Once/If HSR is established, then the market can more truly speak on the preferred method of travel. My guess, HSR in densely populated (i.e. NYC to DC to Philly, etc.) areas will beat the airlines hands down.

The airlines in its early years lost money hand over fist and their survival depended on gov't subsides through i.e. mail contracts. I am sure many folks back then also thought that it was wasteful to support the airlines through tax dollars.

Again, passenger rail is not ready for privatization.

Be that as it may. It still doesn't justify throwing the baby out with the bath water.