Originally Posted by EasternATC (Post 972988)

It was not only unsafe, it was, at best, foolhardy. How close do you think you'd have to get to read the registration number?

Originally Posted by TonyWilliams (Post 973025)

The good old days always seem to look better in retrospect. The last 4 years have had a single air carrier fatality. I think in terms of safety, these are the good old days.

Originally Posted by RU4692 (Post 973049)

...I was asking if it was unreasonable for the controller to ask us to identify the tail number of the Twin Cessna...

Originally Posted by EasternATC (Post 973056)

I was referring to the Ransom and Henson Dash7 ops at DCA. There'll never be another time and place like that. What a hoot!

Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 973088)

Having flown a fair amount of formation I can tell those of you asking how close do you need to be in order to see two people in a Cirrus' cockpit - the answer is close. How close to see a registration number? Close. I'd like to actually see more details about this, but I'll say again in my opinion that I think this sounds like a bad idea.

USMCFLYR

Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive (Post 973144)

According to The Aviation Herald

"FAA radar data show, that the Boeing descended down to 10,800 feet and back up to 11,000 feet while checking the Cirrus, that maintained 11,000 feet all time. The radar tracks suggest the minimum separation between the aircraft was less than 1.2nm lateral with 0 feet vertical."

Originally Posted by TonyWilliams (Post 972886)

There's something missing in all this. I don't get the problem. This is NOT a formation with 1,000 feet ATC assigned separation.

First, this was NOT an air traffic controller, but a supervisor, just like in DCA last week. Yes, the agency actually has supervisors who were never controllers, or failed trainees, etc. They typically aren't checked out on all positions in a facility / radar facility area, and most definitely did NOT get to their lofty positions based on being a stellar air traffic controller.

Second, on the surface, I see no loss of separation, and actually I don't see a problem. There is something missing. Every day, aircraft pass each other at 1,000 feet ALL OVER THE WORLD, safely and legally. Having the crew ask to check on another aircraft, regardless of type, or how man pax on board, seems perfectly responsible and reasonable to me with 1,000 feet separation.

Third, it doesn't appear that the Cirrus was VFR. Also, wake turbulence shouldn't be an issue here.

Lastly, visual separation doesn't appear to have been used, or necessary. Also, visual separation is not applicable for enroute operations (not sure if this was terminal or enroute ops). ATC must have communication with both aircraft, or the ABILITY to communicate with both:

b. EN ROUTE. Visual separation may be used up
to but not including FL 180 when the following
conditions are met:
1. Direct communication is maintained with one
of the aircraft involved and there is an ability to
communicate with the other.

a. TERMINAL. Visual separation may be applied
between aircraft under the control of the same facility
within the terminal area up to but not including
FL180, provided:
1. Communication is maintained with at least
one of the aircraft involved or the capability to
communicate immediately as prescribed in
para3-9-3, Departure Control Instructions, subpara
a2 is available, and:
2. The aircraft are visually observed by the
tower and visual separation is maintained between
the aircraft by the tower. The tower shall not provide
visual separation between aircraft when wake
turbulence separation is required or when the lead
aircraft is a B757.
3. A pilot sees another aircraft and is instructed
to maintain visual separation from the aircraft as
follows:
(a) Tell the pilot about the other aircraft
including position, direction and, unless it is obvious,
the other aircraft's intention.
(b) Obtain acknowledgment from the pilot
that the other aircraft is in sight."

Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive (Post 973144)

According to The Aviation Herald

"FAA radar data show, that the Boeing descended down to 10,800 feet and back up to 11,000 feet while checking the Cirrus, that maintained 11,000 feet all time. The radar tracks suggest the minimum separation between the aircraft was less than 1.2nm lateral with 0 feet vertical."