Conversion to Hobby Flying
 

I am having a hard time making the conversion to hobby flying. It just is not the same. In the past every time I flew a 150 the idea was in the back of my head that this was "one more hour towards my goal". As the undertone goal of a life in professional aviation slowly dissipates so goes a lot of the drive too. What is the point if there is not a 737NG at the end of it?

In addition hobby pilots are not the same as professionals. I don't recall ever having a dispute with other professional pilots about how to fly the plane. We debate plenty of other things but we all fly the plane as the company tells us word for word.

Hobby guys seem to be in a race to kill themselves to the point where they are uncomfortable to be around. Stupid thing after stupid thing. All of them think they are aerospace engineers and test pilots and want to argue their position when in reality all the have is a 20 year old King tape private pilot education and a handful of BFR's.

I went to an EAA meeting and it makes this place seem like a sand box. Those old timers were nearly coming to blows with each other over silly things like Marvel Mystery Oil and what kind of hot dogs to buy for the fly in. In addition the EAA guys like to criticize my Cessna 150 when their plane only amounts to a two thousand dollar pile of tubes in the garage.

I have a few more clubs to check out but I would really like to find a place for myself in aviation. Airport manager perhaps? Maybe a designated examiner? I don't know but I just cant walk away from 25 years of education, training, experience and effort.

Skyhigh

I would probably instruct in your shoes, if I could find adequate insurance. Or find an owner who needs a very-occasional pilot for his citation or king air. Some guys rather than retain a full-time pilot just use a pool of several guys, and hope one will be available when they need him. Or maybe a 135 guy who needs a backup pilot.

I have nothing to do with my club for the reasons you mention. I'll check back every year or two to see if anything's changed :rolleyes:

Sky it is obvious you need to be around pilots on their way up to the big league. It's a more professional mindset and I do not think you are wrong for missing their company. Isn't there a flight college near there? I know you want to remain close to home but there have to be better gigs than making sloppy approaches with ego maniacs. Maybe you could set up a flight school in your back yard and do ATPs and multi add-ons. Keep the 150 and get an Apache to go with it.

Thanks
 

Thanks Cubdriver!

I am considering all of those options. The university however is staffed largely by people who have never flown anything bigger than a Cessna 182. As far as I know none of them have any airline experience or professional flying to speak of.

I have applied a few times but they keep hiring academic types without any experience. You know, people who are good at the theory of flight but have never actually done it themselves. I probably would not fit in there either.

In regards to opening a flight school a friend and I are considering exactly that. He is acquiring a Red Bird flight simulator. We are considering trying a light sport academy of some kind. The big challenge however is the decline in flight students. It does not make much sense under the current conditions. A lot of time and money when the projections for the future are not good.

Skyhigh

The problem here is that he would basically be instructing in something that he is in an emotional dispute over. Not really the mindset of a good instructor.

He doesn't believe in the pursuit of professional aviation. So instructing any student wanting a career as a professional aviator (any - not JUST airlines) is against his deepest held beliefs.

I would have said that he should only instruct hobby pilots, yet the above post makes me feel that he has little more respect for future hobby pilots either - once again basically finding himself in a hypocritical position.

Sky - what do you care what those "old timers" think about your 150? You ought to jump in with both feet and debate with them on any and all issues. You like debate - admit it! ;)

I would actually have to wonder what a flight student would think if my instructor sat me down and spouted off a string of your most often used quotes describing aviators (especially *professional* ones). Now in your last reply, you are applying to University positions though you don't believe in college educations?
Sounds like a double agent type of lifestyle. :o

USMCFLYR

Thanks !
 

USMCFLR,

I agree with your assertions. As a flight instructor I do find myself largely talking my students out of learning how to fly. Some though are wealthy orthodontists and business owners who don't care what it costs and never want to fly professionally. They comprise most of my flight students these days.

In regards to the University if I were lucky enough to gain a position there would work to bring a dose of reality to the program so that those who want to be successful in life can have the opportunity to try something else before dropping 300K on dead end training and education.

However if after receiving a responsible discourse of the hardships of aviation a student still wants to continue to pursue the profession I whole heartedly provide the best instruction that I can. And who is better at helping others to negotiate the mine field of aviation better than I? I have had to suffer the worst luck and hardships in my career. My resume includes a long string of horrible jobs and unscrupulous employers.

I have several career hopefuls whom I have helped to minimize their suffering on their way to the airlines. And when the time comes (and it usually does) I will be there to help them to get out.

SKyhigh

Old Man Flight Students
 

Occasionally I am forced to encounter an old timer who with their wealth of experience amounting to 500 hours over 40 years of flying decides to argue with me the instructor. Usually it is during a BFR and often it is about how to properly enter the traffic pattern.

Upon reaching the moment where the old timer tells me that he does not care what I have to say and that he is going to do it his way only is when I declare the lesson to be over. Why would I give a BFR to someone who openly admits to breaking with the rules or conventional aviation procedure?

I don't want my name in that guys logbook. Why don't they just lie to me and get through the BFR? Not smart or professional. In many cases I think they just keep on flying without a BFR. Hobby pilots are hard to deal with.

Skyhigh

I had to copy it here too.
 

Dear Mr. USMCFLR,

Did you see this post? It is listed in the Flight Training Section.

Considering a career as an airline pilot? Read this

From somebody that in aviation is the other end of the spectrum from skyhigh, in that I was hired at a legacy at age 26 and have been a captain for twenty years and int'l widebody capt. for 14years . And I have to say that Sky High is right! Don't ping on him, he is correct, for all the decay to the profession that has gone on, what happens is you will pay a lot of dues and when it is your time to collect, corporate america will find a way to not deliver. Beyond that I doubt that your education will give you a decent return on investment.

-- Molon Labe

I am not the only one who holds these opinions about aviation. More are coming over all the time.

Cordially;

Skyhigh

That is certainly a tough situation. What RULES is he breaking about traffic pattern entries and can you give some examples of the conventional aviation wisdom that he does not follow.

Having had MANY conversations with you over the years, both on the forums and privately, you are certainly a stalwart when it comes to YOUR opinion and I wonder if you might be the kind of instructor who thinks that his way is the ONLY way to skin that particular cat.

Of course we are only hearing one side on the story here.
As this forum often does a good job of pointing out - there are MANY opinions out there on the simpliest of ideas, recommendations, procedures, regulations, laws, etc....

USMCFLYR

Airmans Information Manual
 

USMCFLR,

The Airman's Information Manual has traffic pattern procedures in it. Over the years some old timers either have picked up bad habits or are still using older procedures and do not want to change.

It is a common issue among VFR pilots. The AIM is not regulatory however if there is an accident or incident and the pilot in question was not using the procedures in the AIM it can be used to cite a violation. The use of standard pattern procedures is the basis for safe uncontrolled airport operations. When someone decides to stray and do a straight in or descending overhead left downwind pattern entry it puts everyone at risk.

The main point is the augmentative attitude of many older pilots. Pattern entry is but one issue I commonly come across. If someone is not willing to accept training then why am I going to risk my certificate?

Skyhigh

I never have had a problem with the local EAAers or old timers at the airports, they just think I fly a 46 Cessna 140 and I really enjoy talking to them. Most people do not know what I do for a living and I certainly do not tell everyone how to fly just because I happen to fly for FedEx. Like cargo said maybe the problem is in the mirror.

This is really only a problem in planes that don't have a radio. There is nothing dangerous with entering from a straight-in or however you wish, as long as you announce it on CTAF...and everyone actually monitors the freq.

Sky,

An aviation education is now up to 300K? You seem to be exponentially and unilaterally raising that price to fit your mood.

Hoss
 

Airhoss,

Did you read the first post? It was not me. It was in the April Costco magazine who claimed that a four year degree at a private university can reach 200K. I added ERU and flight training to it to come up with nearly 300K to get trained and educated.

Skyhigh

Not to advocate or support a position, one of my favorite airplanes to fly does not have a radio.

What am I to do, when flying an old J3, and someone does whatever they wish? Even if they do announce it. Seems to me that is why the AIM has a recommended pattern entry.

Old timers ??
 

Oh man, I guess I got all the old timers stirred up now with your new fangled J-3 cubs and Cessna 140s. Its like the EAA all over again. :eek: Now all we need is someone to bring up the Marvel Mystery Oil and look out .. :D

Skyhigh

So now I'm an "Old timer?".

I was actually agreeing with you on the pattern entry thing. Just cuz I fly old airplanes doesn't make me an old timer...

BTW, what is this Marvel Mystery Oil you speak of?

I feel ya, as my favorite plane to fly (champ) does not have a radio either...that's why I plan on picking up one of these (not this exact one) for <$200 bucks. When i'm out in the cruising around, it's off...but when I go into an airport I turn it on. It works like a champ (no pun intended)! It worked for me in the past.


http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/icom/IC-A14-L.jpg

This was my thought and as such wondered if there might be some splitting of hairs when you tell the story. There was a quite long and informative thread when the former Rickt86 discussed certain pattern entries at his airfield where he was flying a plane for a Jump school. Do you even accept that there might be a different approach to a problem that is legal and within conventional aviation wisdom other than the one which you are teaching for certain practices or procedures? Much of the instruction that I gave was required by our own rules and regulations. that was the easy part. Teaching, explaining, and demonstrating technique was a much more challenging process.
Btw Sky....I'm having a heck of time flying around all of these uncontrolled airports lately. There is a lot more to discover and enjoy in the backwoods of General aviation, though beware because I do alot of straight-in approaches ;)

USMCFLYR

Airmans Information Manual
 

The AIM tells us all that we need to know. I understand that some professional entities like the regionals and turbo-prop operators like to do straight-in's however the AIM does not give exemptions. Why don't we all just do straight-in's? It would be a lot easier.

My main point is that I do not like it when a hobby pilot with minimal training and experience tries to tell me the instructor with thousands of hours, an ATP and a worthless degree in aviation how it is going to be. I have dedicated most of my life to aviation. To me when a crabby old timer with a few hundred hours wants to argue then they are not going to get a BFR from me.

In regards to your questions about my flight instruction career. I have been a part time instructor for many years now. If my collaboration produces a flight school then I will do my part however my first choice is, and always has been, to secure gainful employment flying instead of instructing. I really am not all that keen on instructing but it is what I currently have access to.

Skyhigh

Mmo
 

Chucky1,

Sorry about that. It was late and I made a quick reply.

Marvel Mystery Oil is a product that some like to use in their oil and fuel because they believe that it has some preservative properties. However it is illegal to use in aircraft.

It is a common point of argument among airport bums around here. Some use it while others argue against it. Personally I do not have a position on it at all.

Skyhigh

SH,

I have to agree with the premise of your post. The GA war story "old timer" crowd can be a bit tough to deal with.

Here's a quick war story of my own. I do tail wheel endorsements, a little aerobatic training, the occasional BFR/instrument comp check and every once in a while I'll do a multi-engine rating for a guy.

So I get this guy who is going to buy a C-185, I take him out in my C-180 for a check out. He is your typical over confident, overly wealthy 300 hour PP he can fly OK but has all the answers not nearly enough experience to be doing some of the things that he is wanting to do.

He does alright in the 180 but is rough around the edges and has a smart a$$ answer for everything. After 10 hours I sign him off for his tail wheel endorsement ( most guys take half that time but I was being overly cautious with this one.) So the guy goes and picks up his souped up IO 550 powered 185 and I fly with him for about 3 more hours in it and tell him to take it easy as he is wanting to do a bunch of off field stuff and push weather ETC he's got a bad case of bush pilot wanna be syndrome.

Two weeks later he runs his 185 out of gas on downwind and stalls and crashes turning base to final. He survives but his friend gets a broken back out of the deal. The details of the crash are built on ignorance and false confidence. Witnesses say that he visually checked the fuel tanks because the gauges were both reading EMPTY he looks in the tanks and makes the comment "nothing but rubber." Then decides not to buy fuel at that field because it's $.20 cheaper at another airport 20 miles away. He takes off and according to witnesses makes four low passes at the departure field and then heads for the other airport. Once he gets to pattern of the arrival airport he runs out of gas and sub sequentially crashes trying to extend his glide to the runway passing up multiple open fields in the airport area.

Several months later the same guy calls me to ask me if I'll check him out in his new T-6 he bought with the insurance money. I've got a good amount of time teaching in a T-6 and have checked out multiple new pilots in them but decline and tell him why I will not train him anymore. He finds somebody else to train him and a year later I read about him killing himself while doing low level aerobatics in his new T-6.

Stuff like that is why I have pretty much quit doing GA instruction for anybody but very trusted friends and family and have sworn off the warbird crowd entirely. The guys who can afford warbirds nowadays are generally over wealthy, cocky and under experienced.

When you are dealing with the hobby pilot crowd as a CFI you have to take on a bit different persona than when doing professional pilot, job on the line type instruction. Sky High is correct in not completing a BFR for a now it all pilot. You can't let those type of pilots push you around and a little ego deflation is in order. A "busted" (I know you can't "bust" a BFR) but them not completing one and then having a nice long debrief as to why is often just the humble pie those types need.

I've seen where those type guys will huff and puff and scream and holler only to return hat in hand several days later with swallowed pride ready to learn. The whole "know it all cocky act" is a defense mechanism covering for an insecurity or some type of deficiency in skills or personality. And if they don't return, oh well they are no longer your problem.

Sky, if I were you I'd try and start a 1 or 2 plane flying club with your 150 and maybe another airplane like a 172 or Cherokee 140. That big school on the field doesn't let students rent planes to take friends up in. Many guys are checked out at the FBOs 40 miles south and drive down there to fly friends around.

Anyone arguing Sky's points about traffic patterns better take a look at 91.126 (b) and 91.127 (b). Those are FARs and are madatory.

Sky, that University has a furloughed 121 pilot, an Alaska bush pilot, an Idaho bush pilot and a retired 121 pilot. Three of which are part of that EAA chapter. I think there is some good experience there.

Right on,

Entering a pattern is regulated.

What university are we talking about?

PS

SkyHigh,

It's ERAU not ERU.. My god get it right or you could cause thousands of dollars in leather jacket damage. All of those poor little ERAU students crying, think of the water damage those kids could do to their "Top Gun" jackets.;)

I have a non flying degree from ERAU I got my degree there after I had all my ratings a bit later in life than most kids after I'd flown professionally for some years.

I went to Prescott 1989/90. Top gun style jackets and crotch rockets were all the rage at that time. Hilarious seeing a kid who hasn't even soloed yet wearing a leather campaign jacket with Tomcat patches and all!!:D (Anytime baby!!) YGTBFSM!!:rolleyes:

Ok, so if I make a turn, I will turn to the left. It says nothing about a straight-in, or that you must enter in accordance with the AIM. I guess they could always pull out FAR 91.13...

Now I agree that there are plenty of "cowboys" out there doing what ever they want. But as long as you enter the pattern safely, from any way you wish, and it's clearly announced on CTAF, I don't see a problem. Where it does become a problem is when they do that crap and aren't talking on the radio. I once took off from the correct runway and at about 150 feet agl, I came nose to nose with a Citbria, both of us had to aggressively maneuver to miss each other. Luckily, I was carrying a few extra knots that day. If I had been by myself I would have turned around and had words with this guy...this wasn't the first time he had done something like this. This guy was known for rolling his own and I agree that these dudes need "educated," but as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water... They usually end up like that student of Airhoss...I just hope they don't take anyone with them!

Airhoss, unfortunately there are too many of those guys out there. I now am the same, I only will instruct people I know and trust.

Yea !!
 

Airhoss,

The hobby pilots are different. I don't really fit in with them. That is why I would rather be here taking abuse from you guys. :)

Skyhigh

Damm over the hill at 45, just because I fly a 140.

Joke
 

I was trying to make a joke. :)

Skyhigh

A great line from the great movie "Heart Break Ridge", "Don't give the guys the satisfaction". I have to say this sometimes to myself when I have conflicts with other aviators (especially the weekend warriors) and feel like walking away from aviation. The point is, you shouldn't let other people ruin what you enjoy (or did enjoy) because of their behavior and attitudes.