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Old 02-02-2012, 08:53 AM   #141  
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1) Stupid and hypocritical? There are two PhDs in Economics that signed that letter.

- Roger N. Jones, Ph.D., Professor, Professorial Research Fellow, Centre for Strategic Economic Studies, Victoria University, Australia

- Gary Yohe, Ph.D., Professor, Economics and Environmental Studies, Wesleyan University, CT

2) It doesn't take a PhD in Economics to see that our manufacturing base has been decimated and those jobs aren't coming back. So why not manufacture the green technology the world wants to buy and then sell it to them at a profit?
.
Because you cant sell it for a profit you can only sell it if it is subsidized by upwards of 50%. You do know about Solyndra where we gave one of the richest men in America a 500 million dollar taxpayer guaranteed loan because he kicked back enough money to the right (left) politico dont you.

Ask your economists where (and why) the green manufacturing jobs go after the technology is developed:

http://theweek.com/article/index/223...-else-in-china

Last edited by FDXLAG; 02-02-2012 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:19 AM   #142  
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Because you cant sell it for a profit you can only sell it if it is subsidized by upwards of 50%...
Maybe in the beginning.

It's not unusual for new technology in this country to get government subsidies. In fact, it's typically how things work. But to disparage the goals and objectives an entire industry because some corruption has surfaced in one deal is just silly. You're trying to conflate two different issues.

By the way, do you know how fast the Pentagon goes through $500 million?

http://www.pbump.net/dzr
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:46 AM   #143  
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Maybe in the beginning.

It's not unusual for new technology in this country to get government subsidies. In fact, it's typically how things work. But to disparage the goals and objectives an entire industry because some corruption has surfaced in one deal is just silly. You're trying to conflate two different issues.

By the way, do you know how fast the Pentagon goes through $500 million?

http://www.pbump.net/dzr

In about twice as much time as it takes Social Security and Medicare/Medicaide go through $500 million but what is your point? Perhaps it is that one of those $500 millon expenditures we are talking about is authorized by the Constitution?

You really are going to say that only one 1 green energy project is a ripoff? Spain is broke because of green energy myth. 602 volts sold this month 40,000 F-150s.
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:45 PM   #144  
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Originally Posted by N2264J View Post
1) Stupid and hypocritical? There are two PhDs in Economics that signed that letter.

- Roger N. Jones, Ph.D., Professor, Professorial Research Fellow, Centre for Strategic Economic Studies, Victoria University, Australia

- Gary Yohe, Ph.D., Professor, Economics and Environmental Studies, Wesleyan University, CT

2) It doesn't take a PhD in Economics to see that our manufacturing base has been decimated and those jobs aren't coming back. So why not manufacture the green technology the world wants to buy and then sell it to them at a profit?


.
Yes, stupid and hypocritical. The letter in question had an imperious and patronizing tone, here is my figurative translation: We are the 97% of experts in this field. Those outside the field may have an opinion, but that opinion has no real merit. Further, those in the field that disagree with us are cranks.

So they found of couple of economists to agree with them. I would venture the following hypotheses:

1. It is possible to find at least two PhD economists on either side of any issue.

2. There is some number of economists, and it is not just some marginal 3%, who think that forcing the world into a low carbon-output state would be disastrous for the global economy.

If you do a little research you would see that manufacturing has actually done quite well in this "recovery" relative to other sectors of the economy:http://chicagofed.org/digital_assets...ember_2011.pdf

I am not against green production, as long as I don't have to subsidize it. People want what they want--they don't want Volts, they want Dodge Challengers and F-150s. They don't want expensive, unreliable gov't supported wind farm electricity, they want cheap heat and power. They don't want to be unemployed, they want to be at work building pipelines, drilling for oil and natural gas.

Ecologists were correct when they pointed out that it was wrong to externalize, and thus ignore, environmental costs in economic calculations. But now they make the same mistake in the opposite direction--they tend to subordinate all economic effects to the ecological effects.

More people will take you seriously when you address economic issues in a serious way.

WW
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:53 PM   #145  
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Originally Posted by N2264J View Post
1) Stupid and hypocritical? There are two PhDs in Economics that signed that letter.

- Roger N. Jones, Ph.D., Professor, Professorial Research Fellow, Centre for Strategic Economic Studies, Victoria University, Australia

- Gary Yohe, Ph.D., Professor, Economics and Environmental Studies, Wesleyan University, CT

2) It doesn't take a PhD in Economics to see that our manufacturing base has been decimated and those jobs aren't coming back. So why not manufacture the green technology the world wants to buy and then sell it to them at a profit?

.
That is just it. The world DOESN'T want to buy green technologies because they're too expensive, they don't produce anywhere near the equivalent amount of energy per $, and in some cases, the green technology isn't really green at all! There isn't one green technology that produces the same amount of energy as cheap as a molecule of carbon.

There's so many flaws in your thinking, it isn't funny anymore. It is scary.

The only reason why we're seeing "greener" cars is because of our country's failed foreign policy and lack of a sound energy policy. This has nothing to do with going green. And our government meddling with our manufacturing and automative industries, for the sake of going green, is going to kill them and our economy.

I'll start by giving two examples.

Take the all new 2011 GMC/Chevy 2500HD and 3500HD trucks ... you know, Motortrend's Truck of the Year for 2011? The Duramax diesel engine is one of the best engines ever produced. Unfortunately, for the 2011's, Government Motors required that they install a urea system to the exhaust system to cut down on emissions. This adds a significant cost to owning the vehicle. Equally more stupid, Government Motors locked the ECM unit which controls the parameters to the engine. This prevents someone from installing after market engine tuners. Why would one install a tuner? Well, my best friend has a pre-2011 Duramax with a Banks Tuner on the engine. He can detune the engine performance and achieve 27 mph on the highway at the touch of a button. Or, when he needs HP and torque, he hits another button and the engine becomes more powerful than factory settings. Nobody is sure why GM locked the ECM. Nobody in the industry has done that before. Personally, I believe it is the administration's involvement in Government Motors and preventing those stupid redneck country boys from being able to throw black carbon out the pipes. But, there in lies the rub. Diesel is cleaner than gas because you don't require refineries to refine the diesel to gas. It just doesn't make any sense. This is why Europe is full of diesels, and gas vehicles are exclusive, as it should be!

Situation(s) #2. In 2008, VW made a diesel hybrid that got something like 80mpg, but they decided against debuting it in the USA. Why? In short, they didn't think Americans would buy it. This is because our government has targeted diesel fuel which is why we have the only country in the world where diesel is more expensive than gas. VW also thought Americans would view a diesel engines as too loud, diesel fuel as being dirty, etc. etc. I'd drive a diesel hybrid for 80mpg.

What is more ridiculous than that, BMW has developed a 5-series 520D diesel hybrid. IT GETS BETTER GAS MILEAGE THAN A FREAKING PRIUS !!! Do we have that in the USA ... NO. I'd rather be in a 5-series than a stupid "I'm saving the world" Prius. Lastly, there is hope. VW is bringing their Hybrid Passat to the USA for 2012. (cheers) It gets 45-50MPG. And you can get it for $26,000 base or $30,000 nicely equipped.

If our government would just get out of the way and let our economy flourish, it would! Stop subsidizing green technology that doesn't work or nobody wants. It isn't going to save our economy. In fact, due to the wasteful government spending to subsidize these failed programs, our country has a serious debt problem. If a particular green technology has merits, it will thrive on its own due to capitalism and normal market forces.
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:36 PM   #146  
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There are green technologies that work well, but most have drawbacks. Solar panels work great in sunny areas such as the sw or tropical areas. Where I live you get good tax breaks and the break even point is about 4 years. Wind is free also though noisy and known to kill birds. Hybrids save at the pump, but I would think the battery disposal may post a problem as the numbers increase.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:56 PM   #147  
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There are green technologies that work well, but most have drawbacks. Solar panels work great in sunny areas such as the sw or tropical areas. Where I live you get good tax breaks and the break even point is about 4 years. Wind is free also though noisy and known to kill birds. Hybrids save at the pump, but I would think the battery disposal may post a problem as the numbers increase.
Rama, you just made my point. Some have huge drawbacks that are just now being discovered.

Solar is very expensive and even when considering the sunniest of locations INCLUDING government incentives (for which there shouldn't be any), solar is still the most expensive way to generate power. Another problem is that large solar plants being constructed in the deserts are water-cooled and they're being built in areas that already have water shortage issues. In many rural areas, the electrical system is not setup for parallel generation, which means you can't get paid if you generate more power than you use (some places even prevent you getting paid ... you get credits ... because you and your house is not a utility). Also, net metering policies differ state to state and to help make solar more affordable, some states actually require the power company to sell back extra power generated at a cheaper cost -- IOW more incentives to make solar cheaper.

Windmills are a huge eyesore --- they're destroying some of our prettiest landscapes. More disturbing, windmills have a set lifetime and many companies and municipalities have vague rules on how to dispose of them and of course, who is going to pay for their removal or replacement. They also cause noise and vibration problems and recent studies have found that people who live near them are developing sleeping problems due to the low frequency / vibrations. I recently read an article that discussed how the Dutch (didn't they create the windmill) are ditching windmills due to the high maintenance costs and overall high cost per kilowatt hour.

The electrical hybrids. Now we are learning that their batteries are potential explosive or fire hazards. What are the environmental impacts down the road when it comes to disposal of these things?
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:25 PM   #148  
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Originally Posted by Rama View Post
There are green technologies that work well, but most have drawbacks. Solar panels work great in sunny areas such as the sw or tropical areas. Where I live you get good tax breaks and the break even point is about 4 years. Wind is free also though noisy and known to kill birds. Hybrids save at the pump, but I would think the battery disposal may post a problem as the numbers increase.
Where are you getting the free wind turbine equipment?

When do the taxpayers break even on your solar array?
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:35 AM   #149  
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Default Re: Climategate--The Final Chapter

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Yes, stupid and hypocritical. The letter in question had an imperious and patronizing tone, here is my figurative translation: We are the 97% of experts in this field. Those outside the field may have an opinion, but that opinion has no real merit. Further, those in the field that disagree with us are cranks.
The Journal Hires Dentists To Do Heart Surgery

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After reportedly rejecting a climate change essay by 255 members of the National Academy of Sciences in 2010, the Wall Street Journal has published a flawed op-ed by 16 scientists and engineers instructing public officials not to fight manmade global warming. But most of these individuals do not actually conduct climate research, and their credibility is further undermined by the misleading and unscientific arguments presented in the op-ed...

Six Of The Scientists Have Been Linked To Fossil Fuel Interests...
http://mediamatters.org/research/201201300008
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:51 AM   #150  
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N2264J,

For about the 5th time, answer these questions that jungle has asked many times. Every time you avoid answering them, my guess is because you don't have answers. So, let's try one more time.

1. Why are Mann, Jones and others hiding data, falsifying data, and presenting false conclusions?

2. What is the correct temperature for the Earth?

3. What percentage of climate change in the past was caused by man, and what percentage by natural cycles?

4.What effect would the UN proposals or cap and trade have on the climate?
What are the costs/benefits of these proposals?
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