Airline Pilot Central Forums - Airlines & Wide-body Upgrade

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Airlines & Wide-body Upgrade

Hey guys & gals, I'm new to the forum and not yet an Airline dude. I'm Military and likely making the transition in about 2 years. I have ~2200 TotalT, 1700 MET, 1100 PIC MET, and 1250 Total PIC. Will have quite a bit more MET PIC by the time I am ready to make the jump....so with those hours am I competitive for the Majors (United, Delta, American). Once (if) I am in, how long does it typically take to get to wide-bodies? I've heard it depends on your domicile and obviously seniority---but I was looking for a ballpark. Thoughts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinTC (Post 2013958)

With an ATP, you could probably get hired with UAL now.

Supply and demand and seniority drives how quick you'll get into the right seat of a widebody. Some people have been known to get them as a new hire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinTC (Post 2013958)

I don't know if it's still the case. Earlier this year some of friends where able to get the 767 / 757 at Delta, as a new hire. I believe one got in JFK and the other got it in MSP

I know at least one at DL. Usually not the norm though.

FedEx is hiring into all its widebodies (since 757 is our only narrowbody). I would guess that will still be the case in a couple of years based on retirements. Although, our hiring numbers will not be anywhere close to what's happening with the pax carriers, hiring should be at a consistent pace for a while.

Getting into the "wide-body" ISNT an "upgrade" when you're going FO to FO or simply hired into it, it's simply transition training. Just something to keep in mind.

The actual term of "upgrade" would change the dynamic of some of the answers being given here.

It just depends. And there really are no "ball park" answers since it can vary so widely. Yes, domiciles are one factor. Yes, even new hires sometimes get hired into wide body jobs. Yes, seniority is a factor, as it is for everything at the airlines. And, as someone pointed out, if you're flying cargo versus passengers in a major passenger airline like American, Delta, or United, you may be able to do it faster because the cargo airlines fly much more wide bodies than narrow bodies.

Even more than the above, it depends on the economy and the health of the airlines. Right now, that's not a problem but just a few years ago, the airline industry had some huge challenges to sort out and there was a lot of stagnation in our careers. This is a cyclical industry. It can (and will) happen again. Maybe not soon. But it will happen again. Prepare for that.

My bigger question to you is ... why the hurry to get to the wide body job? It may not be all you think it to be. If flying wide bodies is some personal dream and you're willing to sacrifice all other factors to do it, then it may be possible in short order, but at a cost.

Every airline position comes with its' pro's and con's, depending on your both your OVERALL seniority in the grand scheme of the airline and your RELATIVE seniority in your bid status, the group of pilots who do the same job you do. At every stage, you make a decision to jump to a different pond (bigger equipment, different domicile, Captain upgrade) based on a combination of Quality of Life (QOL) and money. You can be a big fish in little pond, or a little fish in a big pond. Yes, bigger equipment generally pays more per hour. But if you're willing to work a few more hours a month in a narrow body job, you may find you can make up much if not all of the difference, depending on the airline contract. Meanwhile, your QOL will be higher because you'll be relatively more senior in your bid status so you'll have much more control over flying the better trips, getting weekends and holidays off, getting preferred vacations, etc. A lot of senior domestic narrow body FO's stay as FO's long after they can upgrade to Captain because they can hold easy daytime turn trips that pay well and have them home every night.

Meanwhile, most of the junior FO's I know on the wide bodies are on reserve, meaning they are on standby-to-fly with no scheduled trips for the month. They are on the hook to be available more days than a narrow body lineholder. While they may (in hindsight) have many of those days off, they don't know when they'll be needed to work so they can't make firm plans on those days. They may have little or no control over the trips they fly. They may be flying FB or FC (as a backup pilot) who doesn't get any takeoffs or landings, so they go non-current and have to return to the simulator to log landings. I've personally seen pilots lose proficiency flying wide body FO and have some struggles when it came time to upgrade to Captain on a narrow body. And since they are junior in their bid status, pilots who choose to be more selective about bidding that status will continue to come in "on top" of them for a long time, making them perennially junior. Your status in the wide body fleet is based on your system seniority, not how long you've been doing the job. So they move up little or not at all. They may even go backwards in their seniority in their bid status. If there are cutbacks in their bid status, they are the first ones to be displaced to another base or airplane. Always "chasing" the next upgrade as soon as possible can be a more volatile lifestyle. And international trips often do more "back-side-of-the-clock" flying so you may be doing much more all-nighters than you would if you were domestic, if that matters to you. Some guys love them. Some guys hate them. It can take a toll on your body.

Yes, the wide body international flying is more "glamorous" and you get to visit fun locations. But before you set your sights on it, make sure you understand the consequences and what you will be giving up if you do it too quickly.

Thanks for the thorough reply and for all the great information. I guess the main-driving force of the question was wide-body pay....but I am a family man and seek the QOL as a higher priority. If you are telling me that the pay can be comparable and the QOL much higher, than I am all for that. I suppose I was under the impression "The quicker you get to wide-bodies, the quicker your seniority grows in that equipment." From your response, I can see that's not always the case, and it can lead to other problems such as currency issues. Again---great info and thanks for the education.

Go somewhere like Atlas or Omni and you'll get widebodies as a new hire. They have no narrow body aircraft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinTC (Post 2018750)

... "The quicker you get to wide-bodies, the quicker your seniority grows in that equipment." From your response, I can see that's not (ever) the case (from my personal experience)

You're welcome, JustinTC.

Yes, I'm not aware of ANY major US airline that uses a seniority system where your tenure in a particular bid status or airplane type trumps your system seniority (generally based on date-of-hire). I have heard of airlines in some parts of the world hiring pilots directly into Captain positions based on their experience, or hiring "contract" pilots who worked independent of the seniority systems in their airlines, but that's not the way the major US airlines work.

So get hired as soon as you can. Take the earliest class date available. (Some guys I know who were flexible or lived close to their training center volunteered after getting hired to take an earlier, short-notice class date if one came available and sometimes it moved them up hundreds of numbers in the system.) You'll find you live-and-die by that number and you can't improve it once you've got your place in line. As openings become available, you can "bid" for other jobs ... other airplanes, bases, Captain upgrades etc ... and it's all awarded, first-come, first-serve by that system seniority number. Then, once you get into that new "bid status", your relative seniority within that group is based on your system seniority (date-of-hire). I know some guys who deferred upgrading to wide-body FO or narrow-body Captain so that they could by-pass the less desirable "Reserve" jobs and go directly to holding a schedule. They automatically jumped ahead of 30 to 40% of the other pilots who were already doing that job, many who were chasing the "carrot" of the next upgrade ASAP at any cost.

The nice thing is, we all make those career decisions based on our personal preferences, what's happening in our lives at the moment, and how that affects our priorities for the balance between money and QOL. To each his own.

Hope this helps further clarify how seniority works. There's a lot to learn about how the airlines work after coming from the military! (I'm former military also.)

Best wishes.