Regional Minimums - a load!
 

I want to say hello to everyone first and introduce myself (being my first post). I live in the SoCal area (cant wait to get outta here) and currently fly out of Long Beach. I come from a family with a long line of Aviators. My grandfather was a DC-6, DC-7, 727 and DC-10 F/E for 40 years with AAL. My dad, currently a UAL 737 cptn (ex National and Pan Am pilot). My goal since age 3 is to continue the aviation legacy in my family (because I love to fly). I graduated with a degree in Exercise Science and went into the field in SoCal and I absolutely despise the industry. There was never a day that went by that I didn't want to fly. So anyway, enough of that crap.

The reason I am posting is because my father is calling me almost every other day to tell me about him jumpseating with a Mesa, PSA or Skywest pilot that is or knows somebody that was hired with 300 or less hours. He called me the other day and told me about an F/O who, after a year of flying with PSA, had a TOTAL TIME of 700 hours. Amazing!!! I just wanted to let everyone know (which I am sure most of you do) that the hiring minimums posted on the regional airlines website doesn't mean jack squat. From what I gather, if you have 300 hours and a pulse, you can fly for Mesa. This seems a like a great way to build time! Now, I have skimmed the forum and I see that there are some people who absolutely despise Mesa and others alike. I am sure I will feel the same way about them after a year of flying with them (if I can tolerate it). But it's a great way to get my foot in the door, build some jet time and apply to Netjets (my ultimate goal). I've got a buddy that flys for them and he absolutely loves it! The company actually sends ther pilots an xmas gift and a thankyou card for being such outstanding pilots. So, this is the end of my babbling. Praise, comments, grilling....All welcome. Nice to meet you all!

It is true that MESA hires people with 300 hours, but those are people enrolled in MESA bridge program. I'd say you are on the right track with your goal or maybe even in a better place than those MESA guys. MESA upgrade is 7-9 years. You don't wanna get caught up in that long process cause it won't look good if you go to MESA and than decide to leave. I totally understand what you are going through right now. Flight Instructing wears you out after about 6 months. I'd say just hang on there untill you meet minimums for some one good such as Express, Skywest etc cause than later in the long run you will be ahead of those MESA guys since you will be able to upgrade in about 2 years. The sooner you upgrade the sooner you can go to majors. I know 17 people that fly for Express, they all love it. I know 8 people flew for MESA, they hated it and 4 of them ended up quiting because they couldn't handle MESA. Once you quit from an airline it's not good cause than no one wants to hire you thinking you will do the same to them.

[email protected] is my emal if you wanna contact me. I'm about to start flight instructing in Long Beach too at Aero Aviation.

Funny you should mention that. :) A few of the F/O's that my dad talked with had their multi-time on a cessna 310 and a Seminole. I know the guy that flew the seminole had only been flying for a little over a year and a half. Granted, the other guys may have gone to the mesa program but with 40 f/o's that quit last week, I'd say they're going to get desparate. As far as quitting before upgrade, I'd say most people are safe; I think most airlines (chief pilots) understand that Mesa blows and would be most impressed if you could stick it out for a year or two. Also I sent you an email. Maybe we can go fly sometime if you like.

Hey, I thought I'd chime in too... I've been considering Mesa for a while, but had no idea the bad rap they have until coming here. Do you guys think it's really as bad as everyone says it is? I don't personally know anyone that works there, so all my knowledge and information is third party stuff....

Diver. I get all of my info about Mesa from my dad who talks to these guys all the time. It's true, they stink. 9 out of every 10 mesa guys he talks to says it stinks. The positive side is it's a way for people like you an myself to get into a flying job with low hours and build some jet time. Almost every mesa guy he speaks with says the following: "Tell your son to send in his application when he gets his commercial and multi-engine. He is guaranteed an interview, maybe even over the phone." If you want something like Horizon or Skywest then stick it out in the FBO for another year or two. If you want a job now and start building lots of time, send the resume to Mesa tomorrow!

Mesa will probably hire you with a wet ME commercial and a pulse...sucks for the folks who paid $80K to get the same job through their pilot academy! But you don't really want to work at mesa as long as burger king is still hiring....

Hmm... that's an idea... I just got typed on the deep frier! :D

Got a friend who just got picked up with MESA with 450TT, 70ME. Kinda bothers ya when ya see how mins have gone from what they used to be, down to what they are now.

Diver, need a FO for the deep frier?

Good for your friend...She can get the hours / PIC time and move on...May have to take abuse for a few years but it will make her stronger...

-LAFF

Ya, BK is taking street captains, but FO's are free to apply.

Minimum Requirements:
Be at least 15 years old
Must have pushed at least 10 microwave buttons in the last 3 months
Learner's permit (Driver's license preferred)
Able to speak (English preferred)
Have a pulse (Blood pressure optional)

:D

I agree with you LAFF, it would probably be great experience. I may throw in an app and see what happens.... still not sure if that's where I want to go or not...

In order to get to the majors or corporate, you have to quit jobs! Employers want to see that you are making strides to get to the top and the only way to do that is to move on from one to the other. Also, it's not a smart idea to quit any job until you have another lined up and guaranteed! When and if I get a job with an RJ company, I plan on sending numerous resumes out to other companies while I'm there. There's always something better and employers know this.

No...Get hired, pass training, get 1,000 PIC then send out resumes looking for a better job...

-LAFF

1K PIC means exactly squat nowadays.

Isn't that what I said? Just in a different way?

Blast-

Using the regionals to ratchet up ones' qualifications for subsequent jobs is not a bad plan if you are in a position to benefit from it, but the point is most people are not. A few thoughts in response:

1) Most pilots are self-funded through loans and will have incurred considerable debt to get a multi/commercial/instrument ticket. Regional FO salaries do not pay down these debts. Most people report dipping into emergency savings to get by on the first few years of regional flying and it does not get much better for years afterwards.

2) If you have a family or some other bill to pay like student loan repayment from college in order to hope for applying to a major later, then you have serious commitments and regional FO pay will not be enough to keep them. College loans are due in monthly installments after graduation plus 6 months. I have $750/mo payment on a college loan, and this is without any flight training debt at all. I could not go to the regionals even if I wanted to, and I do not think my debts are atypical. In fact, I cannot even afford a spiffy car, house, or children on twice what an regional FO earns.

3) If you are hired with a wet commercial ticket having skipped CFI work and smalltime commercial work altogether, the 8 week CRJ training period tends to wash out lowtimers more often than 750TT+ pilots who worked up by the standard path. Getting there does not insure staying there, and it is not a very strong likehood that you will.

4) If regionals are as hard up for applicants as you describe there would be evidence they are willing to pay for it. I see no such evidence.

5) Regionals would not only ratchet up the starting payscale, they would post super-low minimums on company websites if indeed it were a severe pilot shortage. They would not depend on a few forums to spread the word.

6) If one is over 35 years old then starting a flying career at a regional is considered risky. There is not enough time to get a decent payback on a typical training investment and there's no guarantee you are going to make it to a major airline. As Skyhigh and others point out, the odds are rather against making it to a major as he likes to say "2000 jobs for 60,000 applicants" or something like that. Getting to a major is plan that starts early and carries numerous prerequisites many of which are not equilaterally available.

For the time being I shall pass on all the other negatives associated with regionals such as quality of life, the questionable reputations of tooth-and-nail operators like Mesa and GoJet, the base/domicile inconveniences, furlough risks, medical risks, DUI threat, and so forth. I just want to point out the glaring problems with your undaunted enthusiasm for what amounts to a problematic proposal.

I should add that I too would like to quit my $50k+ job and go off and join the circus excuse me, fly CRJs all week. And one day I may go and do it. But to think this is anything other than a problematic fantasy leading to financial malaise is folly. I wonder if you make the distinction.

By the way: Welcome and nice website!

Nice post.

One thing I'd like to add, though, is I believe the regionals will continue to lower the bar with respect to experience levels of new hires, rather than increasing pay, until the rate of failures in training causes them to take notice. It's all dollar and cents. Training failures are expensive. Airline management doesn't care about Capts having to excessively "baby sit" low time F/O's. They don't care about what goes on in the cockpit as long as the airplane moves from point A to point B without crashing. What they do care about, though, is the bottom line.

When enough guys fail out of training, you'll see pay increase to attract a more well qualified applicant.

God help us if they just lower the standards in training. The line check airmen are really the last line of defense.

Regionals will slowly increase they pay scale, but it will take time.
First of all they have to pick up every pilot out in the market that is willing to fly jets for less than 1700 dollars a month. Once there is no pilots out there they will bring up the payscale and attract other pilots to come work for them.:D

Bottom line it's all about money, if the operator can use us pilots as slaves to make a profit they will.

Thats why we have a pilot shortage, because the industry sucks!!!! Not many students want to become pilots anymore. If you walk in to a big flight school in US this days you will only see Indian and Chinese students. Where are the US guys!!!!! No interest, why should he or she spend a lot of money and earn peanuts!!!


But it is about to change:D.

Spoke with a former Delta Airline Captain the other day regarding the pilot shortage in US, he told me that we are going to see the biggest pilot shortage in aviation. He said that the problem is not only in US the problem is spread around the world, China, India and Middle East and it keep growing.

Good Luck guys;)

Nice post but I have to ask, where are you getting these ideas that the company will post super low minimums on there website? That wouldn't look good for them to the general public. I am telling you, they don't care about the minimums and they certainly will not rachet up the pay. LOL! The information I get is from actual F/O's who have been hired on the RJ with 300-400TT: no they did not do the mesa bridge program or any other RJ prep. My dad has been an airline pilot since 1977, seen it all, been there done that. He's been hired at over half a dozen airlines well below their prescribed minimums because they needed pilots. The company website is worthless as far as mins are concerned! Trash that information! Why does everybody think that they have to be right at 500TT/50ME to fly with the RJs? Because the website says so? Come on! If you run a store and usually require certain credentials for employees and all of a sudden nobody wants to work there anymore, you're going to lower the standards before you start forking out more money to pay them, right! Well, I would pay them more but Mr. RJ CEO is not going to do that. He will scrape the bottom before he ponys up the doe!

Oh, and they're not hard up for applicants because there a trillion guys like myself with low time that would LOOOVE to fly the RJ's and build up some time. The turnover rate at the RJs has, is and always will be high. What is going on today is old news and it's happened before. BTW, thanks for the kudos on the website.

Blast: all in good time, just wanted to counterbalance the conversation. I am not an inveterate detractor from regionals like some are here but I do think caution is in order. Be ready for hardship. Regionals are a valid stop on the way if not an end in itself and if I wasn't towing such a heavy debt I'd go too. X-Jet and ASA are my favorites, being southern.

Hey! I'm southern too! South Carolina here. LOL! But I live in SoCal for the time being. Wife's going to Grad school here. I miss the good ole south. I actually want to apply to ASA and X-Jet but I know for a fact they would want more hours than Mesa. LOL! It's easy for me to say that I understand the hardship because of how much my dad hates the industry now, but I've never wanted something so bad in my life. Ever since I was age three, I knew what I wanted to do and would do whatever it takes to get there. My whole career was planned out around Pan Am since my dad was a training captain there. But that's done with....I at least have to get in, experience it, then make a decision. But I just might play it conservatively and get more hours and fly for a better outfit. Maybe for Bankair, a little mom and pops operation out of Coulmbia, SC. Very nice people! Glad to hear your not an inverterate detractor from the RJ's. LOL! Where in the south do you reside?

Well they call this corner of the US the deep south but I would consider a job at any regional with a second year pay of $40k with a base somewhere the annual mean outside temperature isn't too low. Since that pay is not to be had my plan is to try for the flight department of the corporation I work for as an FO Learjet. $80k starting, sounds like a cool job. Anything to get out of the office!

[quote=Cubdriver;136546]Blast-


6) If one is over 35 years old then starting a flying career at a regional is considered risky. There is not enough time to get a decent payback on a typical training investment and there's no guarantee you are going to make it to a major airline. As Skyhigh and others point out, the odds are rather against making it to a major as he likes to say "2000 jobs for 60,000 applicants" or something like that. Getting to a major is plan that starts early and carries numerous prerequisites many of which are not equilaterally available.

[quote=Cubdriver;136546]Blast-

6) If one is over 35 years old then starting a flying career at a regional is considered risky. There is not enough time to get a decent payback on a typical training investment and there's no guarantee you are going to make it to a major airline. As Skyhigh and others point out, the odds are rather against making it to a major as he likes to say "2000 jobs for 60,000 applicants" or something like that. Getting to a major is plan that starts early and carries numerous prerequisites many of which are not equilaterally available.


How discouraging,

Ok, honest opinions guys, I am about to retire from the Military and will be attending the ATP fast track Airline Transport Pilot program. I am debt free except for a house payment that my retirement will cover. My main concern is by the time I finish my training I will be just about 40. Will an airline even touch me? Will I be able to make a decent living on the pay of a regional, EVER? Basically I am asking am I wasting my time? I will be of course obtaining a loan for the training minus about 25k.

Thanks in advance guys. I am a zero flight time guy btw, I have taken a couple of lessons and fell in love with flying, and am willing to live a humble life for a few years if theres a payoff in the end.

Thanks in advance.

I don't think your age will be a problem. What you consider an "acceptable payback" for your trouble, may be.

I think you could easily be at 100K when you retire.

It could take you 3 or 4 years to break 50K.

I actually worked out a comparison of what how long it would take to equal the pay at a typical office job if you went into flying for a regional airline (I picked ASA) as of tomorrow. I do not have my spreadsheet with me, but in column A there was a starting salary of $48k which increased by cost of living (3%) every year for a series of years. In column B I put starting FO pay at ASA flying the CRJ, followed by another two years of that with corresponding pay raises, and in the third year our hypothesis includes we make captain of CRJ and continue for another few years. My calculation found that after the seventh year at ASA one would just about break even over a desk job. He/she would make more flying the jet from then on.

Now you could say well after 7 years at a desk job you could jump into an entry management position, and be at a much higher salary. This is only true if you happen to have a masters and they need a manager. And the comparison does not include flight training costs which are substantial, and it does not account for what happens if you do not upgrade very fast for some reason, or if the airline goes out of business which I think is a risk more commonly associated with airlines than desk jobs.

My conclusion was unless you like flying a lot you would do better playing the corporate/desk game. You can get raises better than just cost of living in all likelihood, and many desk jobs offer bonuses on top of normal raises for hard work. But you would have to like doing that a lot, toiling endlessly in a cubicle, and be willing to get a masters while working the job which could be pretty taxing. In the end, you would have a better life going that way and I think most people would agree, especially the family people.

What's hard to put a number on, is how good getting to fly every day is. I wanted to do this from about the age of 17 and never had chance. I would be willing to try regional airline life for a while just to get it out of my system. If I liked it, I may be able to do alright paywise. But I would have to decide that giving it a try was the only way I thought I would be happy with myself, something I would not really ask if I only engineered airplanes which is what I presently do.

My father is long since retired, and he said to me once that he thinks he had a deep need for adventure that he never recognized during his working years, and that it made him restless during his career. He thought if he had addressed the restlessness as an innate need in and of itself, he would have made better choices in life.

For what it's worth.......



ASA

New lowered minimums: 500TT/50ME or 400TT/50ME for those with advanced jet training, which would include experience in/with:
Level C/D Jet Simulator
Level 5/6 jet FTD
FMS Training
Glass cockpit
Crew resource management (CRM) training
Accelerated jet ground school.

Age is not a problem for regionals. Almost half my class at Eagle was 40+ (7 of 16), and the oldest 2 were 50+.

Make a decent living is a personal judgement. Since you're military you've probably had long deployments before & your family is accustomed to seperation. Are you willing to be away from home for two months for initial training? Then be gone 5 or 6 days in a row, home for only 48 to 72 hours, for the next year (or three, or more). All for only $20,000? Yeah, you'll gross low to mid 30's 2nd year on till upgrade. Which can range from 2 1/2 years to 10 years, depending entirely upon luck. After five years of so you'll have the opportunity to move to a major. Which means probie pay, displacement, sitting reserve, being last on the seniority list, and potentally being furloghed in the next econiomic downturn.

Is this a big enough payoff for you?

Well all this is possible. The problem is, it's hard also to report to a desk every day. Lack of adventure, sense of not having tried other options, the endless 50 hour workweeks, the stuffy corporate culture, and so on. My thought is why not try flying for a year and see if it's any better than the desk job. If it is, the money will come later. I proved this to my own satisfaction by working out the numbers. The first 7 years will be slim, but money has never been much of a thing to live for if you ask me, and if you persist it will be there eventually in flying.

Very well put. I agree. If you enjoy what you are doing, and are good at it, the money will follow.

Exactly! Life is only good if you enjoy what you're doing. I currently work in a warehouse throwing boxes all day. It's 32 degrees and dark all day every day. It would be a great change to pitch the nose up into the clouds and see the sun. The thought of being at this place for the rest of my life kills me. I can't say that I'd love to fly, but the view of the alternative makes me want to open my pocketbook up.

Hello everyone!
Ok, I'm new here, actually this is my first post, sounds so elementry. but anyway, I am the first one in my family to fly, so I really don't have anyone on the inside showing me "the way." I'm just trying to fiure it out as I go. From reading all of your posts I have concluded that BK is definately not the way to go. :) SO is there any other ideas? I already work for Comair, but I am on the maintenance side. Do I need to change positions? Should I stay where I am until I get my hours? Help?

Hey, I know you!! :p

Might be best just to stay where you are and get your hours going. Those inside connections you have made and are continuing to make are priceless when it comes to transferring over. Also, good paying jobs during training at an airline can be hard to find. It sounds like you are already in a good position to make the jump to the flight line when your ratings and hours are where they need to be. Good luck!!

First since you've only posted once.,re-join this forum under a different Avatar (handle). Pretty pilot is not going to get you taken very seriously on these boards. Regarding your question, if you can stay at Comair working and build your flight time, do so only if it works to your advantage regarding getting a FO slot with less time than someone off the street. If working in your current job impedes your getting your hours quickly, leave, build your time (instructing) than apply to all regionals. Talk to the chief pilot at Comair, tell him what your trying to do and see if your current employment with Comair will help you even if you leave to build hours. Good luck.